MESA TA passes 78%

[surplus1]

Re: Got an idea

But hey, why not, ASA and Comiar have no scope to protect their own flying.

Time for me to ask some dumb questions. Why do ASA and Comair need Scope to protect "their own flying"? Haven't you guys been telling us all along that it's all your flying and we have no flying?

I hope the idiots involved with the RJDC start seeing the big picture. Mainline is not the enemy. We have not limited your careers. The fight you need to be in is the one that gets you scope and protects your flying before your growth comes to a halt as well.

I'm one of the idiots that supports the RJDC, so I need some help from one of the intelligent like yourself. Help a poor idiot would ya?

First you told us that ALL the flying belongs to you. Now you're telling us that that we must get Scope to protect our flying.

Remember I'm an idiot, so I don't understand. Are you telling me that I now need two kinds of Scope? One to protect our flying from you and another one to protect our flying from Mesa?

I thought you said that Delta was subcontracting [uyour [/u]flying? Now you say Delta is subcontracting our flying. Dude you're just way too smart for me. You seem somewhat confused though. What happened, did you choke up on an overdose of ego?

Then again maybe your not smart at all, you're just a horse's a$$? Could that be it? Nope that's not possible. Sorry, I forgot you were a part of the mainline intelligencia, therefore you couldn't possibly be a horse's a$$. My bad.

Face it, if you didn't have mainline's tit to suck off you would starve to death. Focus all you efforts on the real problems. What comes around, goes around. Aint unity a beautiful thing.

Seeing as how there is no milk in mainline's tit right now, I guess that means we are in danger of starving to death. Is that why we're making money and you're not? Is that why you want our airplanes and our flying too? You have a death wish of your own? You want to join us in sucking on the dry tit or are you really telling me that you'd like to suck on our tit for awhile?

Guess I'll stick with the idiots. What comes around does go around. Maybe if you hadn't spent so much time spitting on us when you thought you were "the man", and we were sucking on your tit, now that you're dry we'd let you suck some, and the milk might have come around to you. Unity is a beautiful thing. That's exactly why there is none with the likes of you. You ain't beautiful.

Come on dude, write another post. I love playing with the intelligencia. I learn a whole lot from your kind ... about what not to do.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: Re: Got an idea

I'm one of the idiots that supports the RJDC, Help a poor idiot would ya?


Remember I'm an idiot, so I don't understand.


Guess I'll stick with the idiots.

All your multiple page posts and you finally summed it all up in one.

 

[surplus1]

All you people talking about refusing the jumpseat to Mesa need to be careful. If you start a jumpseat war, you're playing with fire and EVERYONE is going to get burned. Take a look at Delta and Comair; those guys are not exactly best friends but you don't see them denying the jumpseat.

Those are words of wisdom my friends. The jumpseat should NEVER be used as a political weapon. When you do that, you make yourself a suicide bomber equivalent. Both you and your enemy will die. Please don't do that.

To all the Mesa pilot critics.....

Why don't any of you ask the Mesa pilots who told them that they should vote yes and ratify this TA? How many people from DC were there, in the road shows, selling this contract? Ask them.

 

[Twotter76]

My thoughts

While I wouldnt normally touch a thread such as this there are a few things that I feel I need to comment upon. First off as an ACA pilot that is now uncomfortably close to the bottom I have to say that wishing furlough on anyone is completely unprofessional and should not be tolerated. I am not among the 87 pilots my company just annouced are getting the axe but many of my friends are and I am presumably next if any more furloughs occur. I think this gives me right to comment on the situation.

One repeated thread here is denial of the jumpseat. I will never deny a Mesa pilot the jumpseat and would expect the same courtesy. Politics has no place in the jumpseat - period. We have all worked to hard since 9/11 to get it back to where it is to see it set back by (justifyably) angry pilots trying to get even for the damage casused by this TA. However do not expect me to be more than polite to you. I will comply with all reciprocal jumpseat agreements but that is the end of it. I will not go out of my way to get a Mesa employee on my plane.

I do hope we can impress upon our fellow pilots the damage that this has caused to the negiotiating positions of everyone else in the industry. Not because I think it can be fixed now but because it shows what happens when we think of just ourselves and our immediate position rather than the long term effects.

Someone pointed out in another thread that if Great Lakes can fight for a better contract (and they have) then why can't Mesa? I agree with this 100%. Just because Mesa seems to have stronger opposition in Management (J.O.) than the Lakers do doesnt mean they should fight less.

To the 22% that voted no I applaud your courage and convictions and I apologize in advance for the suffering that you will endure because of the short-sightedness of your fellow pilot. I hope that things somehow work out for you all but you understand that I have limited faith in your collective ability to achieve much of anything now.

And finally I do hope that I won't see Mesa pilots here (other than the aforementioned 22%) bitching and moaning about QOL and pay but I think we all know that we will. You have not only brought this upon yourself but everyone else who was striving hard to make a difference during these very difficult times. If I am furloughed (which looks more likely every day) you can bet your a$$ that I will not be sending to resume to Mesa. I will deliver pizzas before I sink to that level and dont give me that crap about having to pay the bills and watch out for #1 because I have as much debt as anyone on here. But the line has to be drawn somewhere and I draw it here.

OK i'm off my soapbox and welcome any intelligent replies to this post (positive or negative).

Twotter76

 

[SanJuanPlebe]

Mesa Pilots-TA Protects Scope

Folks,

We had to give up the hopes of a good contract in order to get scope. Industry leading scope that will protect ALL of us in the future. Look at what Chautaqua is going through with Republic. Mesaba with Big Sky.

CCAir pilots took a bullet for us and voted down a substandard contract and D. Woerth wouldn't sign the POS they finally passed after the company waited to make an offer until all of the probationary CCAir pilots were off probation and could vote to save their jobs (which they did, 72% passage on the concessionary CCAir Contract).

Our TA has rock solid scope that stops almost immediately Freedom Airlines. We no longer have to worry about a whipsaw at Mesa Air Group.

As for the rest of the TA, note that every section except minimum bid guarantee has enhancements. That means we got improvements. Were they great? No. Where they what we wanted? Absolutely not. Where they what we deserve? Hell NO!

However, they were improvements. It stopped Freedom. It put CCAir pilots back to work along with hundreds of furloughed US Airways pilots immediately.

So we didn't "lower the bar" as the bar was already low with us. We raised it. Although not as much as Comair or Air Willy. But when you don't have ANY leverage, well you do what you have to. We saw our jobs disappear every day to new Freedom planes and pilots. Your ire should be directed at them. Had they not stepped up to enable JO to start that airline, we very well may have been able to negotiate a much better deal.

But again, this contract has improvements in every section, including new cancellation pay and a commuter clause. Now, next time, we improve them.

But don't take my word for it, our TA is posted elsewhere on this website.

And the jumpseat should not be a tool in which to advance a political agenda. Our management recently did that with Skywest and I truly hope pilots are more professional than management.

 

[sleepy]

That's funny. I did a search of your posts and I didn't see any completely trashing SW? I also did a site search and can't find any threads that were outright trashing southwest for doing exactly what you say Mesa is doing. Why the difference? Maybe b/c even though SW has a long term contract that was designed to low ball the entire industry you would love to go there? -Bean

That is true, I have never trashed SWA (great company IMHO). I was not trashing MESA. Obviously, you do not comprehend what you read. Again, the MESA pilots are choosing growth over higher wages, better benefits, and QOL. This will come at the expense of the higher cost carriers for U and AAA (ACA, Skywest, AWA, and the AAA WO's). They will have to lower their wages to compete with you, or you will take the flying they currently perform.

BTW, I do not want to work for SWA, unless they get an ATL crew base. DAL, AirTran and JB are the only places I would leave ASA for.

 

[mckpickle]

Negotiate and argue the facts at YOUR company, not the facts at Mesa. Show your management how you can still be competative and make more money. Do the research, crunch the numbers, and offer a viable, comprehensive, factual argument. ENOUGH with the pointing fingers!

.

Ok so what do we do when our management slides a copy of the Mesa TA across the table and says, well look at what they get? Why should YOU get anymore?

 

[DruDown]

Ok so what do we do when our management slides a copy of the Mesa TA across the table and says, well look at what they get? Why should YOU get anymore?

That's a good question. If you can answer it intelligently and with sound financial and business support, you should be able to get what you feel you deserve. It's your job and the job of your MEC and negotiating committee to present a reasonable proposal to your management with solid justifaction and fact.

 

[mckpickle]

exactly, and do you think that the Mesa neg com did that?

 

[DruDown]

I think the negotiating committee did a good job, not great job. But, keep in mind, during these negotiations, there was more invovled, including, Freedumb, CC Air and J4J.

At most other companies, alter-ego situations do not currently exist (Mesaba and CHQ excluded), and a history of shutting down operations and putting pilots on the street (as with CC Air) hasn't occurred. These variables change the goals of the process drastically and change the entire process drastically. Comparing, let's say ACA's negotiations to Mesa's is apples to oranges.

There is not another company up and running with aircraft and routes that ACA's management could transfer everything to. There is no other company that ACA's management had already dismantled in the past year. And if we remember, when ALPA turned down the CC Air contract, JO did as he said and dismantled the operation.

So, let me ask you this - Would it have been better for the Mesa group to turn down the contract, have everything moved over to Freedumb (non-union and cheap labor), put approx 1400 pilots out of work, put approx 2000 other employees out of work, and you have your contract still being undercut?

If your answer is yes, then I know you're insane.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

I'm genuinely disappointed that Mesa pilots were not able to see the shortcomings of this agreement and the damage that it will do for the rest of the regional segment. Additionally, I'm concerned by your lack of self worth.

Thank you to all of those who voted no. There are honorable men amongst the thieves.

 

[BoredToDeath]

I've been stayin out of this as much as I can but I could'nt resist this one part.

In Dru's last paragraph he says this,"have everything moved over to Freedumb (non-union and cheap labor)".

Dru if I'm not mistaken did'nt Freedom have a "more lucrative" contract than Mesa. And if so, why could'nt the Mesa pilots at least have tried to come up to Freedoms level?

Now keep in mind I do not know for a "Fact" that Freedom was getting more than Mesa, it was posted here a while back somewhere, so I'm not 100% sure that that was the case. If anyone can shed some light on that question I would love to know the answer.

And if it is indeed true then I think there are some real credibility issues about the MEC at Mesa and the lack of knowledge of the portion of the pilot group that voted this thing in.

 

[Beavis]

Dru....

We ALL have to deal with an "alter ego" airline now, and that airline is MESA!! Not only do we have to face our companies demanding we accept such a sh!tty Mesa type contract, we all have to sit by and watch as Mesa moves in and gobbles up flying that has historically done by us! This has been done to PSA, ALG, and PDT for years! Do you think your MEC did not know this? Of course they did! I find it unbelievable that you all would accept such poor quality of life issues! How can you guys have lives, or feed your families! I would not want to do this job if it meant only 8 days off, as much as we are away from home in this job! And a guy that commutes to his base may only be home 5 or 6 nights per month! HOLY CRAP! I cant believe you guys would WANT to hold onto a job like that that badly! Maybe it was time to tell JO to go pound! Well, I guess not!

 

[Flack]

RE RE RE Got an idea

Surplus 1

You really are clueless. Delta's pilot contract allows a percentage of flying to be done by the DCI carriers. It is the Delta pilots flying that has been negotiated to allow DCI to do some of this flying. You are right about that. However, Delta management decides who will do that flying. If Comair/ASA negotitated scope for themselves they could protect that flying so that it doesn't get outsourced to someone else and you guys would get the max block hours and percentages allowed. Or Delta can add some more DCI carriers like they did with Chataqua. Thats what ultimately prevents your growth and therefore limits your careers. Not Delta pilot scope and your deathwish to eliminate scope clauses from the industry. How has Delta pilot scope limited your career? When you went to Comair did you expect to fly anything bigger than a RJ. Did you expect to make $200,000 a year? Delta has not limited your career at Comair. You have. If you wanted to fly bigger airplanes and make more money apply to a major airline. Don't litigate your way into a better job. Am I wrong that Chataqua is now a Delta Connection Carrier? Do you think that ACA may start getting some more of Delta's flying down the road? Does ASA and Comair have any say in this or can you prevent this from happening? NO! You guys need your own scope to keep Delta mgmt. from outsourcing what flying should be yours and keep it from going to the ACA, Mesa, and the Chitaqua's. Enlighten me **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** for brains. Stop trying to destroy the professsion RJDC supporter and put those efforts into protecting and preserving our profession.

 

[sleepy]

Re: Got an idea

Maybe the scumbags at ASA/Comair who support the RJDC can also find a way to sue Mesa ALPA for "limiting their careers". I hope Delta doesn't jump on the band wagon and start handing over flying to the Mesa whorehouse. But hey, why not, ASA and Comiar have no scope to protect their own flying. There is nothing that prevents Delta from doing this. Scope is a dirty word, right. Yeah, until it furloughs pilots and parks airplanes or defers deliveries at your airline and you watch the flying go to someone else. Isn't this why the Skywest and ACA pilots are bitching about Mesa? I hope the idiots involved with the RJDC start seeing the big picture. Mainline is not the enemy. We have not limited your careers. The fight you need to be in is the one that gets you scope and protects your flying before your growth comes to a halt as well. You need to place all that ill-conceived will where it should be directed. NOT MAINLINE. You would have no job if it wasn't for mainline. Face it, if you didn't have mainline's tit to suck off you would starve to death. Focus all you efforts on the real problems. What comes around, goes around. Aint unity a beautiful thing.

Actually, MESA cannot fly for DCI thanks to DAL scope, which will not allow code share (without DALPA approval) with airlines that operated aircraft that exceed 70 seats. Since MESA operates 90 seat RJ's for America West, we at Comair and ASA are safe (for now) from MESA.

 

[AceCrackshot]

I just have a couple of questions for the Mesa guys here...

Why was Freedom flying "yours?" Were any 50 seaters or props being parked to be replaced with 70/90 seaters? I guess I really don't understand the claim to something you never posessed.

Why do you think that your scope is "rock solid?" Because ALPA told you? ALPA told me that MidAtlantic represents career opportunity.

Why do reserves only get 8 days off a month...why feed the junior guys to the wolves. I would say 10 is a absolute minimum.
Not just me...but most reasonable contracts...just a question.

Just curious...

 

[DruDown]

Dru....

Do you think your MEC did not know this?

I cant believe you guys would WANT to hold onto a job like that that badly!

First off, I do not fly for Mesa - I left Mesa. I left for several reasons including the low pay and poor QOL. Please to not make assumptions about who for or where I work.

Secondly, as it's obvious you do not fly for Mesa, how could you even begin to understand the decision making process the Mesa pilots individually had to go through to vote the way they did? It is very easy for all of us, on all sides with differing opinions (myself included) to speculate, to say how we would have done things, etc. If we were each in their shoes, I would bet that the deicisions we would have made would be extremely more difficult than ranting on a website and most likely very different than what we all rant about.

 

[Beantown]

Why was Freedom flying "yours?" Were any 50 seaters or props being parked to be replaced with 70/90 seaters? I guess I really don't understand the claim to something you never posessed.

For every 70 and soon 90 seater delivered to Freedumb, America West was replacing a 50 seater at Mesa. One for one. That is why it is Mesa's flying. Again, it is amazing how much you guys bitch without knowing the facts. -Bean

 

[AceCrackshot]

Kind of like Mesa Dash 8s replacing Piedmont Dashes in FL and flying the same routes...then PDT parks aircraft and furloughs pilots...
Yeah, Bean, I guess I do know what you mean about people bitching without knowing the facts.

 

[Flying"C"ranchr]

I'm shocked...

I just got access to a computer and learned Mesa voted yes to the TA.

I for one voted no. While I'm proud to be on military leave to serve my country, I am feeling pretty sad about being an employee at Mesa.

When I get back home, I'm going to press hard to get as much time with my unit in the Army Reserves. I can't stand to continue to work the schedule Mesa has for our flight crews. As well as the way they treat us.

In the meantime... Go Army. Although my quality of life, pay, etc. isnt much to brag about right now (in the military)... at least I'm doing something I believe in.

Regarding my Mesa situation, I have a bad taste in my mouth, It's only a matter of time before I send in my letter of resignation. Hopefully, I may (some day) get a job at Netjets, Flight Options, Air Whisky, Air Tran, or ASA. I just want an opportunity to do my job the best that I can and be treated professionally.

To every one on this post, I want to say I'm sorry how this TA turned out. I, for one don't get it... scope and CCair? CCair fell on their sword for something they believed in. In my opinion the folks that voted yes to this TA, just twisted that very sword. CCair lived and died for pay and QOL. The folks that voted yes on this TA said too bad... this is all you get.

As for Freedom and the scope issue... Propaganda.

I'm getting sick in the stomach.

Anyway... God Bless you all. When I get home and I need a ride somewhere... if you deny me a jump seat, I'll understand... and no hard feelings.

Ranch'r

 

[Dash8]

Bravo ranch'r, bravo.

it's unfortunate that so few of your bretheren at m.a.g. have the personal fortitude and self respect that you do.

Best of luck to you on duty, hope you and the rest of our guys (and gals) come home safe and soon.

 

[surplus1]

Re: RE RE RE Got an idea

Surplus 1
You really are clueless.

You are correct, I am clueless. Since this thread is about the Mesa TA and not about Delta, Comair or ASA, I won't bother to respond and change the thread.

If you want to argue with me about the stuff your writing about, post in the appropriate thread and I'll try to accomodate you. Based on what you've said so far, it will be an easy task. With your level of "Flack" I've already figured out I can fly at any altitude with no danger of taking a hit.

Meanwhile, have a nice day.

 

[Beavis]

C Rancher.....

Finally a Mesa pilot I can respect!! Too bad the rest dont see things clearly like you do! ''Good luck, and be safe!!

 

[HelloNewman]

DELETED

 

[olympus593]

Sorry, I WOULD LOVE to give you a ride but we are weight restricted...
Thanks F*****S, My next pay cut is coming but on the other hand watchig you guy's live in the crew room in PHL because you can't even afford a crash pad is priceless...

 

[J32driver]

HOLY THREAD RESERECTION BATMAN!!!!

It is funny to go back through this and read all the predictions that were made in '03. Specifically about Mesa coming in to do DCI flying. Only took 2 years.

 

[ERJdca]

Does anyone else get sick of reading this constant bashing? Im i the only one? Let me tell you, we have a real bunch of professional pilots on this chat board! Oh wait, you guys all should make top dollar with these types of attitudes, right? It really is funny. I would love for the media to stumble upon this board and exploit it. Wait, better yet, maybe your future employer finding out what type of person you truly are?? You think Mesa/TSA/Pinnacle are bringing down the industry?? Look at yourself! How about taking all this energy and making it useful. How about getting involved and creating some unity amongst all pilots and stop dividing us?

In response to the previous post by "olympus593", (who is not the only one on this board with this post) grow up. Play your jumpseat politics, it only a reflection on yourself. I hope the next guy you deny is on the interview board at your next job!

 

[Relic01]

I keep reading all of these colorful statements from pilots at other regionals and I can't help but wonder, what is it do you think we owe you anyway? You don't work for our company and you don't have to live under our contract.

These are the worst economic times in the history of the airlines, all three of our codeshares are either bankrupt or have govenment money in their pockets, and the current administration wouldn't even entertain the thought of an airline strike. We have an MEC that consists of a bunch of white-trash boneheads and a management that was whipsawing 3 pilot groups. Had the Mesa pilots not accepted the TA, they probably would be out of a job in the very near future. I don't know about you, but I've been furloughed before, it sucks and I have a family to feed.

Now I'm hearing talk about how we should have shut the company down. Mesa Air Group employs about 3500 people, only about 1400 of them are pilots. You mean to tell me that we should go tell the rest of the employees that we're going to shut this company down because we would not accept an aggreement that has modest improvements in every section.

You can hate us all you want, but we don't owe any other pilot group anything. The jumpseat works two ways.

Amen, we don't owe anyone swat. Please refrain from basing your lives on what happens here and stay in your perfect worlds. This is a Mesa pilot group issue and we negotiate for no one else.

 

[uba757]

So you can trash the Comair pilots on their deal but cant take any sh-t on yours. (And some of your guys did talk alot of sh-t). TYPICAL. By the way where is FDJ2 when you need a Mesa supporter at mainline. What does he think about this deal? Once again FDJ2 backs the wrong horse. I think even General Lee would be smart enough to stay away from this one. By the way you now work for DCI so what you do is our business. UBA757