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MESA TA passes 78%
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sleepy said:
That's funny. I did a search of your posts and I didn't see any completely trashing SW? I also did a site search and can't find any threads that were outright trashing southwest for doing exactly what you say Mesa is doing. Why the difference? Maybe b/c even though SW has a long term contract that was designed to low ball the entire industry you would love to go there? -Bean
DruDown
Where's the Runway?
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 86
Amongst all of the hostility here, most of you have made a good point - "we will all have to work harder to get a better deal." Yes, work hard! Have we all forgotten our work ethic. If your company slides you the Mesa TA, slide them back a proposal that explains how and why the company can and should give you a better deal. Put a little elbow grease in your negotiations, don't just hollar "we want this because that's what they got!"
Negotiate and argue the facts at YOUR company, not the facts at Mesa. Show your management how you can still be competative and make more money. Do the research, crunch the numbers, and offer a viable, comprehensive, factual argument. ENOUGH with the pointing fingers!
The more the pilot groups point fingers, place blame and argue with ourselves, the more leverage each management will have. You don't like what he Mesa guys signed, FINE, but guess what you don't have to live with it, they do. You're afraid your managment will only accept a similar deal, OK, don't let them, you fight the battle, you go on strike, you potentially lose your job. You think running the company into the ground and being out of work is better than a mediocre contract - sounds like your priorities are a little misarragned.
Let's not forget, the Mesa guys still have their jobs, have brought Freedumb into the union, have made some improvements from the previous contract and have created jobs for furloughed pilots from US. While it's not tremendous, it is a step in the right direction. And let's remember, an airline is a business, in which the goal is to generate revenue and create a profit. We are simply the labor that provides a means for the company to accomplish those goals. You're not happy about being just labor, fine, move into management!
In the end, you only have your MEC to hold accountable for what your company accepts. Your MEC speaks and for you - NOT the Mesa pilot group! If you're not happy with the outcome of YOUR negotiations at YOUR company, blame YOUR MEC and YOUR management!
Deny the jumpseat to all the Mesa pilots? Are you kidding me! Are we in elementary school still! Don't you get it, with this kind of behavior you're playing right into the hands of every management - you're weaking the union even more by creating more division within it. You want better at your job, you fight for it at your company, but stop all of the childish figner pointing, blame placing, and game playing. Everyone cries about "professionalism," well now is the time to be professional, accept that the Mesa TA has been ratified, let the Mesa pilots deal with the consequences of their actions, and fight intelligently at YOUR OWN COMPANY if you don't want a similar deal.
Negotiate and argue the facts at YOUR company, not the facts at Mesa. Show your management how you can still be competative and make more money. Do the research, crunch the numbers, and offer a viable, comprehensive, factual argument. ENOUGH with the pointing fingers!
The more the pilot groups point fingers, place blame and argue with ourselves, the more leverage each management will have. You don't like what he Mesa guys signed, FINE, but guess what you don't have to live with it, they do. You're afraid your managment will only accept a similar deal, OK, don't let them, you fight the battle, you go on strike, you potentially lose your job. You think running the company into the ground and being out of work is better than a mediocre contract - sounds like your priorities are a little misarragned.
Let's not forget, the Mesa guys still have their jobs, have brought Freedumb into the union, have made some improvements from the previous contract and have created jobs for furloughed pilots from US. While it's not tremendous, it is a step in the right direction. And let's remember, an airline is a business, in which the goal is to generate revenue and create a profit. We are simply the labor that provides a means for the company to accomplish those goals. You're not happy about being just labor, fine, move into management!
In the end, you only have your MEC to hold accountable for what your company accepts. Your MEC speaks and for you - NOT the Mesa pilot group! If you're not happy with the outcome of YOUR negotiations at YOUR company, blame YOUR MEC and YOUR management!
Deny the jumpseat to all the Mesa pilots? Are you kidding me! Are we in elementary school still! Don't you get it, with this kind of behavior you're playing right into the hands of every management - you're weaking the union even more by creating more division within it. You want better at your job, you fight for it at your company, but stop all of the childish figner pointing, blame placing, and game playing. Everyone cries about "professionalism," well now is the time to be professional, accept that the Mesa TA has been ratified, let the Mesa pilots deal with the consequences of their actions, and fight intelligently at YOUR OWN COMPANY if you don't want a similar deal.
Re: Compared to 7 year old Skyway contract
THUNDERCHIEF wrote
"We get 10 days off, regardless of month length...."
[/B][/QUOTE] You must not get it. B/c the Mesa contract is based on 13 month bid you can basically add one day to the guaranteed days off. That makes line holders at 11 days off. Not great but better then your 10
"The 19 seat pay rate we agreed to in 1997 is just PENNIES below what you guys agreed to last week....."
I'm sure you right. The fact is that the 1900's at Mesa are losing money hand over fist under the current (old now) contract. They are bringing down the profits of the whole company significantly. JO offered the N.C. much HIGHER jet rates if they would allow a "B" scale for the Props. How are you supposed to ask for huge pay increases on an aircraft type that is losing Millions every quarter? JO said that if they stuck to this he was going to shutdown AMW. This would have resulted in hundreds of furloughs. Lets face it, the 1900 is on its way out of the scheduled airline business. At least at the larger regionals.
"The 32 seat jet compared to the big turboprop pay, we make about $5 more an hour....."
You shouldn't compare jets to props. How are you 32 seat jet rates compared with ACA?
"The sh!ttly thing is we're in negotiations RIGHT NOW, next week when we're with the National Mediation Board, staring our soul-less management in the face. Guess what their gonna slide across the table. THE MESA TA!!!"
I'm sure they will. You will then slide it back to them and say that you are a different airline dealing with a different set of circumstances. Explain to them that they have no leverage to immediately transfer assists, causing a mass furlough of our pilots. Tell them they need to negotiate based on your situation at Skyway! Opps, with the way things are going with Midwest express that may not be your best option. Your better off blaming the Mesa pilots for you problems.
"How can we ask for anything when a company 10 times our size, agrees to less pay, less days off, longer days than we have
RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
See above
-Beantown
THUNDERCHIEF wrote
"We get 10 days off, regardless of month length...."
[/B][/QUOTE] You must not get it. B/c the Mesa contract is based on 13 month bid you can basically add one day to the guaranteed days off. That makes line holders at 11 days off. Not great but better then your 10
"The 19 seat pay rate we agreed to in 1997 is just PENNIES below what you guys agreed to last week....."
I'm sure you right. The fact is that the 1900's at Mesa are losing money hand over fist under the current (old now) contract. They are bringing down the profits of the whole company significantly. JO offered the N.C. much HIGHER jet rates if they would allow a "B" scale for the Props. How are you supposed to ask for huge pay increases on an aircraft type that is losing Millions every quarter? JO said that if they stuck to this he was going to shutdown AMW. This would have resulted in hundreds of furloughs. Lets face it, the 1900 is on its way out of the scheduled airline business. At least at the larger regionals.
"The 32 seat jet compared to the big turboprop pay, we make about $5 more an hour....."
You shouldn't compare jets to props. How are you 32 seat jet rates compared with ACA?
"The sh!ttly thing is we're in negotiations RIGHT NOW, next week when we're with the National Mediation Board, staring our soul-less management in the face. Guess what their gonna slide across the table. THE MESA TA!!!"
I'm sure they will. You will then slide it back to them and say that you are a different airline dealing with a different set of circumstances. Explain to them that they have no leverage to immediately transfer assists, causing a mass furlough of our pilots. Tell them they need to negotiate based on your situation at Skyway! Opps, with the way things are going with Midwest express that may not be your best option. Your better off blaming the Mesa pilots for you problems.
"How can we ask for anything when a company 10 times our size, agrees to less pay, less days off, longer days than we have
RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
See above
-Beantown
Thunderchief
Ultra Hog
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2003
- Posts
- 207
Bean wrote:
I'm sure you right. The fact is that the 1900's at Mesa are losing money hand over fist under the current (old now) contract. They are bringing down the profits of the whole company significantly. JO offered the N.C. much HIGHER jet rates if they would allow a "B" scale for the Props. How are you supposed to ask for huge pay increases on an aircraft type that is losing Millions every quarter? JO said that if they stuck to this he was going to shutdown AMW. This would have resulted in hundreds of furloughs. Lets face it, the 1900 is on its way out of the scheduled airline business. At least at the larger regionals.
The fact is here at Skyway, the Beeches are making money...
I'm not blaming anyone Bean, I'm just saying it sucks and makes our job a little harder...
-Thunderchief
I'm sure you right. The fact is that the 1900's at Mesa are losing money hand over fist under the current (old now) contract. They are bringing down the profits of the whole company significantly. JO offered the N.C. much HIGHER jet rates if they would allow a "B" scale for the Props. How are you supposed to ask for huge pay increases on an aircraft type that is losing Millions every quarter? JO said that if they stuck to this he was going to shutdown AMW. This would have resulted in hundreds of furloughs. Lets face it, the 1900 is on its way out of the scheduled airline business. At least at the larger regionals.
The fact is here at Skyway, the Beeches are making money...
I'm not blaming anyone Bean, I'm just saying it sucks and makes our job a little harder...
-Thunderchief
Thunderchief
Ultra Hog
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2003
- Posts
- 207
CitationLover
Aw, Nuts!
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2003
- Posts
- 3,316
Thunderchief, I understand that this makes things a little harder. If you are making money on the 1900s and can prove it (always the kicker), there is no reason that you shouldn't get a raise or better workrules. Just do your self's a favor and make sure you leave a little room for a profit so your new pay raises don't become furloughs in the future. I wish you guys and others in negotiations the best. Good luck. -Bean
Thunderchief
Ultra Hog
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ACABlueridge
Active member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2003
- Posts
- 28
snip>>
The fact is that the 1900's at Mesa are losing money hand over fist under the current (old now) contract.
That is part of the problem with airlines today they operate aircraft and routes that actually lose money. Therefore the employees pay the price for mismanagement. If a planes loses money drop it if a route loses money drop it. What good is holding onto market share at the expense of profits.
The fact is that the 1900's at Mesa are losing money hand over fist under the current (old now) contract.
That is part of the problem with airlines today they operate aircraft and routes that actually lose money. Therefore the employees pay the price for mismanagement. If a planes loses money drop it if a route loses money drop it. What good is holding onto market share at the expense of profits.
Thunderchief
Ultra Hog
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2003
- Posts
- 207
ACABlueridge, From a Mgmt point of view I agree with you. You have to remember that there are always other things that are in play. One being leases. It may be cheaper to lose 5 mil a year then to return 45 1900 to their owners and break the leases. I know Mesa owns some of there 1900 but I don't know how many. This is just one of may things that we (pilots) aren't privie to.
As pilots, this is a very tough issue. We want our company to make as much money as possible so we can get paid more. So the company can obtain financing to grow, creating job security and so the airline has the cash to make it through the tough times like these. On the other hand, the retirement of these losing aircraft means furloughs, at least in the short run. The union tends to look short term (one of there biggest problems if you ask me) and so they chose to try and protect the jobs even if it costs the company long term stability. -Bean
Got an idea
Maybe the scumbags at ASA/Comair who support the RJDC can also find a way to sue Mesa ALPA for "limiting their careers". I hope Delta doesn't jump on the band wagon and start handing over flying to the Mesa whorehouse. But hey, why not, ASA and Comiar have no scope to protect their own flying. There is nothing that prevents Delta from doing this. Scope is a dirty word, right. Yeah, until it furloughs pilots and parks airplanes or defers deliveries at your airline and you watch the flying go to someone else. Isn't this why the Skywest and ACA pilots are bitching about Mesa? I hope the idiots involved with the RJDC start seeing the big picture. Mainline is not the enemy. We have not limited your careers. The fight you need to be in is the one that gets you scope and protects your flying before your growth comes to a halt as well. You need to place all that ill-conceived will where it should be directed. NOT MAINLINE. You would have no job if it wasn't for mainline. Face it, if you didn't have mainline's tit to suck off you would starve to death. Focus all you efforts on the real problems. What comes around, goes around. Aint unity a beautiful thing.
Maybe the scumbags at ASA/Comair who support the RJDC can also find a way to sue Mesa ALPA for "limiting their careers". I hope Delta doesn't jump on the band wagon and start handing over flying to the Mesa whorehouse. But hey, why not, ASA and Comiar have no scope to protect their own flying. There is nothing that prevents Delta from doing this. Scope is a dirty word, right. Yeah, until it furloughs pilots and parks airplanes or defers deliveries at your airline and you watch the flying go to someone else. Isn't this why the Skywest and ACA pilots are bitching about Mesa? I hope the idiots involved with the RJDC start seeing the big picture. Mainline is not the enemy. We have not limited your careers. The fight you need to be in is the one that gets you scope and protects your flying before your growth comes to a halt as well. You need to place all that ill-conceived will where it should be directed. NOT MAINLINE. You would have no job if it wasn't for mainline. Face it, if you didn't have mainline's tit to suck off you would starve to death. Focus all you efforts on the real problems. What comes around, goes around. Aint unity a beautiful thing.
Nindiri
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2002
- Posts
- 1,141
All you people talking about refusing the jumpseat to Mesa need to be careful. If you start a jumpseat war, you're playing with fire and EVERYONE is going to get burned. Take a look at Delta and Comair; those guys are not exactly best friends but you don't see them denying the jumpseat.
If you regional guys really want to be treated like mainline pilots, then start acting like professionals instead of a bunch of junior high school kids.
If you regional guys really want to be treated like mainline pilots, then start acting like professionals instead of a bunch of junior high school kids.
onglideslope
New member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2003
- Posts
- 1
I am part of the 22% that voted NO at Mesa. I for one could not accept a TA that sends a message out to the ENTIRE industry that we are worth less than a two bit whore. I can work anywhere for 18K a year and be home every night with my family. I am more than disappointed with my company, MEC, and fellow employees. This vote shows every management team that they too can try the same BS during their negotiations and have a good chance of getting away with it. I wish the rest of the industry luck and only hope that their pilot group has more self respect than mine did......
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