Mesa orders $637 million of Bombardier j

[Capn Butthead]

Dont blame Southwest pay and do your research. Southwest pilots are paid very well and are treated very well. I cant wait to work there. Yes you do work at southwest, but you still see a lot of days off and get to enjoy the job.....plus you make good money doing it........

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

I was being sarcastic, Southwest is my first choice and with all the hiring hopefully be there soon.

 

[SaladShooter]

These numbers do not look like they are bringing down the industry

Year 5 FO
AirTran------------------72.01
SouthWest-------------108.24
JetBlue------------------78.24
AmericaWest----------72.30---prior to new contract

Year 5 CPT
AirTran-----------------120.01 737-700
AirTran-----------------135.61 737-800
SouthWest------------166.53 737
JetBlue-----------------131.34 A320
AmericaWest----------111.23-prior to new contract

Notes

jetBlue-averag hourly rate based on 85 hours a month
SWA-Calculated actual trip pay rates converted to an hourly rate with a conversion factor of 1.139


These are the legacy carriers CPT rates

AMR---------------147.93 737-800
CAL---------------148.55 737-700
DAL---------------243.07 737NG
NWA--------------200.60 A319/320
USAIR-------------143.57 A319-320
UAL----------------136.64 A319/320

The numbers show that the LCC are not that far out of the average. Excluding the high DAL pay of course as they are 2 standard deviations outside of the norm.

 

[crj579]

Some of you are missing the point here. It is because of the LCC's that the Majors are furloughing and cutting labor costs. Undercutting (or competition, if you prefer) has been going on for years. Why do you think Air Tran and Southwest are doing so good right now? Now they are the darlings, but 10 years ago Southwest pilots were not very liked because of their wages and work rules. Now will Mesa grow and eventually raise their wages or will wages from other regionals come down to meet theirs like what is happening with USAir and Southwest. I guess time will tell.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

In 1998 when I left a mid-sized regional to go work for AirTran people thought I was a nutcase!!

"Why the heck do you want to go work for Valujet???!!" they said.

Our class was a real bunch of winners too. We were the scum of the earth (I can admit it). All a bunch of guys (and gals) who, for whatever reason, could not get hired by a major. The concensus was, at the time, that a little DC9 time might make us more competitive.

The airline was a joke at the time. Our manuals were a mishmash of Valujet, Airtran, and Eastern. The airplanes were old British Midland and Turkish Air. Most didnt even have an HSI.

Getting furloughed in Oct 98 was a blessing in disguise ... or so I thought.

Fast forward just 5 years and all of the sudden it has become a career airline??? This is the place that people are falling all over themselves to get a job?

Well, maybe your crystal ball is better than mine but we make the decisions we make based on the best information we had at the time.

I fly with an awful lot of guys NOW (2003) who say, "I cant believe you went to USAir!!! Why would you go THERE?"

Well, come on. That is a great answer in 2003, but would have been a pretty unrealistic answer in 1999 when I had just been furloughed by AirTran (after just completing training), and US Airways was hiring over 100 pilots a MONTH, and getting a new Airbus every WEEK.

Today's "airline of choice" for regional pilots looking to move on are places like AirTran and Jetblue. It will be interesting to see what the NEXT five years bring.

Flying IS fun... but fun doesnt feed the kids.

PS - A reminder. There is no such thing as a flying career... just your next flying job.

 

[Intruder One]

FurloughedAgain.........You are correct the get on the bandwagon pilots want SW,JB and Air Tran and someone will probably ask them in 5yrs...WHAT WERE YOU THINKING!......good post

 

[AvroJockey]

Re: Re: Mesa orders $637 million of Bombardier j

Just remember guys keep undercutting everyone else on those 70-90 seat pay rates so you can get your Turbine PIC and move on the majors!!! Don't worry about FO pay, because all that counts is Turbine PIC. In fact FO pay should stay equal to 50 seat pay, because after all the FO time is pretty much worthless! Remember though you too will upgrade soon if you just sacrifice right now...

Yea! Get all that Turbine PIC so you can go to United…. oops! I mean US Airways… oops! I mean American… oops! I mean for any major…that’s left, after we take everyone’s jobs by flying at atrocious pay rates.

I thank god every day for my major brethren who don’t loosen scope to much, to ensure their professional future, and mine.

 

[surplus1]

Avro,

Kool Aid refills are free, have another.

 

[AvroJockey]

Avro,

Kool Aid refills are free, have another.

By gauging your other posts, I thought you were above this maturity level.

I’m sorry you don’t get along with your major airline colleagues. I can assure you there are benefits to this.

 

[shamrock]

It is because of the LCC's that the Majors are furloughing and cutting labor costs.

Or is it because the Major's follow a broken business model in which they only make money when things are booming and immediately start hemorrhaging money when the economy takes a turn?

The Majors are furloughing and cutting labor costs because their business plan doesn't work in a down economy. They are lead by people with guaranteed pensions and off-shore retirement funds that will live a quite comfortable life regardless of what happens to the company, so what do they really care?

Have the LCCs influenced what has happened at the Majors? Sure they have. The Major's are trying to use LCCs as a reason why they need to furlough and get concessions from their workers but they seem to be missing the point. All furloughs and concessions might do is allow a company to hang on until the economy picks up. But at that point they can bury their heads in the sand until the next recession rolls around, so why worry?

My $.02, the Majors are furloughing and cutting labor costs because of poor management and planning, not because of LCCs. If they would pay attention to fixing their underlying problems they wouldn't have to worry so much about AirTran. Southwest, or JetBlue.

 

[-9Capt]

FurloughedAgain,

I agree 110% with every word of your post.

I too was hired by AirTran in '98 (must have been before you beacuse I missed the furlough by a few classes). I never expected this one time rag-tag operation to amount to a hill of sh!t.

I remenber what you said about the training/manuals. Half the manuals said ValuJet, the FSI instructors didn't know the FOM, procedures changed daily and the moral was very low. I can't believe some people (not me) actually paid for this training.

We're the flavor of the week right now but who knows what will happen in 5 years from now.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Good Times...

I'm glad to see that you prospered and hopefully some of the good guys from my class did well and continue make strong careers at AirTran.

Guys like Scroggins, Hagen (the 'Lakers), Choate -- all super guys who, if they're still there are, I assume, excellent B717 captains.

Was a neat place. But, we make the decisions based on the information we have at the time, and when the recall came, going back never even crossed my mind.

Ever see that Seinfeld episode when George finally realised that if he would just do the OPPOSITE of his gut-feeling, he would be successful?

I'm considering employing that technique...

Take care!

 

[Tim47SIP]

Shamrock

My $.02, the Majors are furloughing and cutting labor costs because of poor management and planning, not because of LCCs. If they would pay attention to fixing their underlying problems they wouldn't have to worry so much about AirTran. Southwest, or JetBlue.

You are right about the poor management and planning, but wrong about LCC's. 3-4 years ago, ALPA was blaming the regionals for all of the mainline woe's. We were stealing all of the flying, management was breaking their scope demands with RJ's, and Planebusiness.com was the choice message board. Now the mainlines are strugling even more because of the ill conceived notions of tying managements hand and only allowing a certain number of RJ's or none at all; to preserve the industry. Well, back then, some of us were trying to state that the problems were not the WO regionals, but the LCC's. Of course we were told otherwise! Mainline structures were intact fom the pre regulation days. LCC structures were brand new and cost efficient. Mainline just looked the other way and ignored the new "cancer", in denial (not ment to diss the LCC's). ALPA is still hoping it will all just go away.

Well, they are here to stay, and thus they are direct competition. Mainline has to reorganize and compete, or they go away. Sure, mainline has international routes that the LCC's don't have, but it is just a mater of time before the LCC's are going accross the pond. Management did screw up, but mainline has to somewhat mirror the competitions structure in pay and operational methology to stay afloat. Example: Delta better get their pay structures in line with the industry or they to will be left in the dust. AA, US and United have already experienced the shock of the LCC's the hard way by limiting or scoping out the RJ's and ignoring the real competition. Delta was fortunate to have a more lax scope that allowed the company to somewhat right size the aircraft, and thus is still fairly strong.

So, bottom line is that the LCC's are the real problem (along with inept management). The legacy carriers need to get off the pot and restructure, recost, regroup, and rearm, or their wont be anything left but a shell of their original self.

OK, I am done! Flame away.