Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Mesa and Freedom Air Pilots
- Thread starter ADG
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
ADG said:
Yes and no. All Freedom pilots are still on the Freedom cert. Some senior Mesa pilots are now over there too (post contract), since 700 and 900 CAPT. pay is higher than -200 pay. All the -700's and -900's are still on the Freedom certificate. The Mesa certificate isn't approved for them yet.
At Mesa and HP, most definately. HP routinely refuses the JS to any pilot on the Freedom certificate, regardless of whether they went to Freedom before or after the contract, which means the most senior guys who held the line get hosed for actions they didn't support b/c they now fly under the Freedom certificate. Most other carriers don't seem to know the difference b/t Freedom and Mesa or care.
-Boo!
ADG states, "Although not officially scabs, they should be treated as such and I do not believe we should forget what they did."
Get real. When you're 70 and look back on your flying career, is this what you're really going to think is important? Grow up! You make it seem like they committed murder. Everyone needs to make a living somehow. You think what these guys did is going to affect the entire industry? Hardly.
Get real. When you're 70 and look back on your flying career, is this what you're really going to think is important? Grow up! You make it seem like they committed murder. Everyone needs to make a living somehow. You think what these guys did is going to affect the entire industry? Hardly.
Go back to the general board, eh? I've worked at a major and a regional, so you're not the only "expert" out there. I'm far from it, but I can give my opinion like the others. I love it when my pilot buddies complain about other airlines' contracts. Do you really think this contract or that contract affects your life at a different carrier?
bogberto
Heavy Metal Lounge Singer
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2003
- Posts
- 111
Amen, Bean. 185: hate to say it but you have a lot to learn.
See, it's quite difficult to get more days off, higher per diem, better payrates, and improved QOL when 85 people went to management's toy airline (read: union buster) and agreed to do it for nothing.
It frustrates me to hear about how some of the most junior Mesa FOs went to Freedumb because, in their opinion, their career wasn't moving fast enough.
Yeah. Now it's moving nowhere. I will never forget.
See, it's quite difficult to get more days off, higher per diem, better payrates, and improved QOL when 85 people went to management's toy airline (read: union buster) and agreed to do it for nothing.
It frustrates me to hear about how some of the most junior Mesa FOs went to Freedumb because, in their opinion, their career wasn't moving fast enough.
Yeah. Now it's moving nowhere. I will never forget.
bogberto - i wouldn't say the Mesa pilots are going nowhere with the number of new jets they getting. that's a lot of pilot hiring. i don't know HOW anyone can complain about that!!
you say i have a lot to learn, but i'm coming at you from a different angle - non-union, non-professional pilot. i have a different take on things.
you say i have a lot to learn, but i'm coming at you from a different angle - non-union, non-professional pilot. i have a different take on things.
C425Driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Posts
- 357
185Flyer,
The pilots who went to Freedumb did a lot to affect the industry. These people jumped ship to fly bigger planes at reduced wages and work rules. In other words, they lowered their worth as pilots. Mesa was now in a position to shift much of their flying to Freedumb. If that happened, Mesa pilots would be forced to either give up their jobs or shift themselves over to Freedumb for inferior pay rates and work rules. The only way that any of this could have been prevented at the time would be if Mesa pilots refused to fly for Freedumb. Now, at the same time that this was happening, Mesa pilots were in contract negotiations with management. To stop JO from outsourcing their jobs to Freedumb, Mesa pilots had to negotiate lower than industry standard payscales and work rules to get management to agree to put the Freedumb pilots on their seniority list and prevent jobs from being lost. How does this affect the rest of the industry? Other airline management negotiating teams now use the Mesa contract as the standard in which to bargain with. Mesa lowered the bar for the industry when they would have had the potential to raise it until the Freedumb pilots stepped up, and now the rest of us out there have to fight to raise that bar again. Mesa pilots fault? Not entirely. The morons who jumped ship to go fly a bigger plane fault? You bet.
You do have a lot to learn. Contracts at one carrier can have a direct affect on contracts at other carriers. It's called pattern bargaining and it goes on all the time. I've spoken with pilots from AWAC, ASA, ACA, Mesaba, just to name a few, and they all say that their managements are waiving the Mesa contract in their faces. Mesa can have all the new jets they want, but it isn't going to make the working conditions there any better without a decent contract.
You are right in that you have a right to your opinion and you have a right to express it. But try to have an open mind when people who live by these work rules every day try to enlighten you on these subjects. You have a different take on things because you've never worked and lived under a pilots CBA. We have a different take on this subject because we deal with these types of issues every day. I'm not at Mesa any more. I used to work there so I feel for these guys and I know how their contract affects the rest of us.
C425Driver
The pilots who went to Freedumb did a lot to affect the industry. These people jumped ship to fly bigger planes at reduced wages and work rules. In other words, they lowered their worth as pilots. Mesa was now in a position to shift much of their flying to Freedumb. If that happened, Mesa pilots would be forced to either give up their jobs or shift themselves over to Freedumb for inferior pay rates and work rules. The only way that any of this could have been prevented at the time would be if Mesa pilots refused to fly for Freedumb. Now, at the same time that this was happening, Mesa pilots were in contract negotiations with management. To stop JO from outsourcing their jobs to Freedumb, Mesa pilots had to negotiate lower than industry standard payscales and work rules to get management to agree to put the Freedumb pilots on their seniority list and prevent jobs from being lost. How does this affect the rest of the industry? Other airline management negotiating teams now use the Mesa contract as the standard in which to bargain with. Mesa lowered the bar for the industry when they would have had the potential to raise it until the Freedumb pilots stepped up, and now the rest of us out there have to fight to raise that bar again. Mesa pilots fault? Not entirely. The morons who jumped ship to go fly a bigger plane fault? You bet.
You do have a lot to learn. Contracts at one carrier can have a direct affect on contracts at other carriers. It's called pattern bargaining and it goes on all the time. I've spoken with pilots from AWAC, ASA, ACA, Mesaba, just to name a few, and they all say that their managements are waiving the Mesa contract in their faces. Mesa can have all the new jets they want, but it isn't going to make the working conditions there any better without a decent contract.
You are right in that you have a right to your opinion and you have a right to express it. But try to have an open mind when people who live by these work rules every day try to enlighten you on these subjects. You have a different take on things because you've never worked and lived under a pilots CBA. We have a different take on this subject because we deal with these types of issues every day. I'm not at Mesa any more. I used to work there so I feel for these guys and I know how their contract affects the rest of us.
C425Driver
bogberto
Heavy Metal Lounge Singer
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2003
- Posts
- 111
185: the Freedumb pilots are going nowhere.
The Mesa pilots are just getting more RJ, which reduces the amount of mainline jobs, which means we're stuck here working at this company for a lot longer than any of us ever wanted.
I'd rather fly a 737 or 'Bus than sit in the RJ for the rest of my life.
The Mesa pilots are just getting more RJ, which reduces the amount of mainline jobs, which means we're stuck here working at this company for a lot longer than any of us ever wanted.
I'd rather fly a 737 or 'Bus than sit in the RJ for the rest of my life.
Boy, you guys can be harsh. I wish some of you would take the time to read the posts before spouting back with the typical fluff. Well, Mesa and Freedom will merge, so you can't really argue that one is better/worse off than the other. I don't know how you could argue that growth is bad for employees (read pilots and non-pilots) and the shareholders. No one wants to answer my question about this. Why would a regional pass on flying more jets?
Taking away mainline jobs? That's a whole other ballgame that I don't want to start.
Taking away mainline jobs? That's a whole other ballgame that I don't want to start.
bogberto
Heavy Metal Lounge Singer
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2003
- Posts
- 111
185flyer said:
OK, I'm not blasting you, I'm simply letting you know that you're not understanding this. I am a Mesa pilot, and we have a crappy new contract because of Freedumb. It was impossible for us to bargain for better wages, per diem, QOL, etc, when the Freedumb types were doing it for a lot less than what we wanted (which was also very affordable). When we signed the contract, we got the Freedomb aircraft back where they belong (at Mesa). Don't forget: Freedumb is and always has been part of Mesa Air Group. Siblings should not be used to fight against each other. That said, Mesa is worse off thanks to Freedom. Our per diem, our payrates, our days off, everything is bad because of Freedom.
How is growth bad? When there is ZERO quality of life to your job, and it's that way because management claims that it's a requirement of growth, that is bad. OK great so maybe I can be a Captain on a CR9. But that still means there will be an FO on that same aircraft who will be stuck in that right seat for a long time and at crappy wages. Are you really gaining anything when those new jobs you're creating are paying less than a cashier job at McDonalds? We say no, not for someone who has invested a lot of time and money into themselves.
No worries, the game has been going on for a long time. When we at Mesa heard about our CR7 and CR9 order in 2001, we were all excited about it. Now, many of us do not want them anymore. An aircraft that can hold 90 seats belongs at a mainline carrier, flown by mainline pilots, not 300 hour pilots.
But yes, that is a completely different ballgame for another time.
Hope this helps.
-B
CWASaab
Well... Not anymore
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2002
- Posts
- 122
185 you really are quite incorrect.
What happened at Mesa with Freedom has had a tremendous impact in the negotiations at other carriers.
To be more specific, the company I work for, Mesaba Airlines, a wholly owned subsidiary of Mesaba Holdings (I think it is now going to be called MAIR Holdings) is 3 years into section 6 negotiations. Little progress is currently being made, despite having been under mediated negotiations for about a year now.
That is not Mesa's fault exactly, but our managment has said to the pilot group repeatedly during recurrent ground schools that our new contract must be competitive with Mesa. That would be a step backwards for us.
Our over-paid and under-educated Senior Leadership Team even went so far as to go out and purchase a non-ALPA airline. This appears obvious to us who work here as a threat that we are replaceable if we get too expensive, much like Freedom was to Mesa.
In the mean time this airline that our SLT claims is well run and a great opportunity has been bleeding our financial performance, to the tune of about 2 million a month. Their RASM is $.193 thanks to the EAS program, while their CASM is $.262. Yeah, thats one hell of a greatly run company, and such an opportunity.
Our Negotiators have faced this tactic by informing the Company, at the table, that without scope that eliminates the threat of an alter-ego, there is not going to be a ratification. I stand behind the Negotiating Team and the MEC 100% on this issue as do just about all of us here.
I know we are not the only pilot group hearing the "we must compete with Mesa" mantra from the executive offices, and we are not the only group facing an alter-ego. What happened at Mesa with Freedom has become the blueprint for all recent talks. Non-ALPA alter-ego threats have become the latest tactic to keep those flying small jets and turbo-props from acheiving livable wages.
What happened at Mesa with Freedom has had a tremendous impact in the negotiations at other carriers.
To be more specific, the company I work for, Mesaba Airlines, a wholly owned subsidiary of Mesaba Holdings (I think it is now going to be called MAIR Holdings) is 3 years into section 6 negotiations. Little progress is currently being made, despite having been under mediated negotiations for about a year now.
That is not Mesa's fault exactly, but our managment has said to the pilot group repeatedly during recurrent ground schools that our new contract must be competitive with Mesa. That would be a step backwards for us.
Our over-paid and under-educated Senior Leadership Team even went so far as to go out and purchase a non-ALPA airline. This appears obvious to us who work here as a threat that we are replaceable if we get too expensive, much like Freedom was to Mesa.
In the mean time this airline that our SLT claims is well run and a great opportunity has been bleeding our financial performance, to the tune of about 2 million a month. Their RASM is $.193 thanks to the EAS program, while their CASM is $.262. Yeah, thats one hell of a greatly run company, and such an opportunity.
Our Negotiators have faced this tactic by informing the Company, at the table, that without scope that eliminates the threat of an alter-ego, there is not going to be a ratification. I stand behind the Negotiating Team and the MEC 100% on this issue as do just about all of us here.
I know we are not the only pilot group hearing the "we must compete with Mesa" mantra from the executive offices, and we are not the only group facing an alter-ego. What happened at Mesa with Freedom has become the blueprint for all recent talks. Non-ALPA alter-ego threats have become the latest tactic to keep those flying small jets and turbo-props from acheiving livable wages.
CWASaab,
I can understand that management is going to use any tactic to get what it wants. "Low cost" seems to be the new game nowadays. I don't hear a lot of Southwest bashing out there, but WN also makes up for lower pay through great benefits, something Mesa might be lacking. A friend above said I was completely wrong in that the negotiations at one airline don't affect another. I do believe him now, but where has this so called "pattern negotiations" got the majors?? Each carrier topped the other one until everything came crashing down.
Each carrier's pilot group has to do what's best for themselves. HP has been in negotiations for several years. They want AMR or Delta pay, but it's never going to happen. They also want a pension. How can you ask for a pension when the rest of HP's employees don't have one? The non-pilot folks are in the same wage boat. If the pilots of HP are low paid, then the folks at the gate and at the lower levels of corporate are also lower paid. Not sure what you mean by under-educated? I busted my butt in grad school for an MBA, just like you busted your butt to make a career out of flying.
It is good to see management facing up to their own hypocrisies. AMR and Delta certainly felt the backlash of lavishing their top dogs with bonuses and guaranteed pensions. I'm on the corporate side, but I also fly for fun so I'm not out here to bash pilots.
Glad to have a level headed discussion.
I can understand that management is going to use any tactic to get what it wants. "Low cost" seems to be the new game nowadays. I don't hear a lot of Southwest bashing out there, but WN also makes up for lower pay through great benefits, something Mesa might be lacking. A friend above said I was completely wrong in that the negotiations at one airline don't affect another. I do believe him now, but where has this so called "pattern negotiations" got the majors?? Each carrier topped the other one until everything came crashing down.
Each carrier's pilot group has to do what's best for themselves. HP has been in negotiations for several years. They want AMR or Delta pay, but it's never going to happen. They also want a pension. How can you ask for a pension when the rest of HP's employees don't have one? The non-pilot folks are in the same wage boat. If the pilots of HP are low paid, then the folks at the gate and at the lower levels of corporate are also lower paid. Not sure what you mean by under-educated? I busted my butt in grad school for an MBA, just like you busted your butt to make a career out of flying.
It is good to see management facing up to their own hypocrisies. AMR and Delta certainly felt the backlash of lavishing their top dogs with bonuses and guaranteed pensions. I'm on the corporate side, but I also fly for fun so I'm not out here to bash pilots.
Glad to have a level headed discussion.
Brother Francis
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2002
- Posts
- 266
No worries, the game has been going on for a long time. When we at Mesa heard about our CR7 and CR9 order in 2001, we were all excited about it. Now, many of us do not want them anymore. An aircraft that can hold 90 seats belongs at a mainline carrier, flown by mainline pilots, not 300 hour pilots.
....but you will bid the aircraft right.
....but you will bid the aircraft right.
There are a few things that need to be pointed out when it comes to Freedom. Instead of getting a side letter to the current contract when it came to getting the 700/900's online, the ALPA leadership drug their feet, asking for wages higher than America West pilots made. At the same time Duane Woerth was publicly annoucing that he would not endorse the 900 flying at the regional level. Throw into the mix, USAirways scope clause regarding flying over 70-seats and you have the reason why JO started Freedom. In actuality, Freedoms contract had higher pay. I guess the arguement comes down to where do you want to draw the line when it comes to what type of aircraft a regional can fly. I think that there shouldn't be limits to career growth at any company you fly for. Inhouse unions seem to get changes done more quickly and avoid the pressure from a national type of union trying to represent both regionals and majors. JMHO
CWASaab
Well... Not anymore
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2002
- Posts
- 122
185flyer,
I sure didn't mean to imply that you, or even most airline management types, are under-educated, my comment was directed at mesaba's management. So unless you work for XJ, please accept my apologies.
The sad fact is that if you were to join XJ's Senior Leadership Team your MBA would be a 100% increase in the current collective C.V. As of right now we don't even have a single MBA, just one masters degree in the group, a masters of Management and Organizational Development from American University. And that sheepskin isn't even hanging the the biggest office in the G.O.
As far as the contract stuff goes, and despite what my MBA holding older brother thinks of my level of understanding, I do know that Managament's job is to maximize value for the share holders (of which I am one). However the fact that our current wages were negotiated more than six years ago, and that our starting FOs make less than $20,000 flying a four engine jet and top out at about 29K (and we currently have plenty of FOs who have topped out the FO scale) needs to be changed.
All the while the President CEO and Director of Mesaba Holdings, Paul Foley, took a 36% pay raise last year. The SLT here at Mesaba Aviation was equally rewarded for their work. Not only does Foley get plenty of cash, but he commutes from NY and the company pays him extra money to do so. How many airlines out there cover travel and housing expenses for commuting pilots?
I guess my point is that if our SLT were interested in the success of the airline more than the growth of their own bank accounts then they need to step up to the plate, offer us a decent contract with liveable wages and work rules so that we can continue to attract the type of quality people we currently have working in the flight deck.
Oh, and they need to cut the fat at the G.O. I am still waiting to find out why our Mair Holding officers (all two of them) needed to move into seperate offices in downtown MSP. My best guess is they knew that they would be too embarassed to show themselves to the rank and file with all the money they wasted buying that montana based-dark-cloud-on-the-horizon airline to try and scare us.
I sure didn't mean to imply that you, or even most airline management types, are under-educated, my comment was directed at mesaba's management. So unless you work for XJ, please accept my apologies.
The sad fact is that if you were to join XJ's Senior Leadership Team your MBA would be a 100% increase in the current collective C.V. As of right now we don't even have a single MBA, just one masters degree in the group, a masters of Management and Organizational Development from American University. And that sheepskin isn't even hanging the the biggest office in the G.O.
As far as the contract stuff goes, and despite what my MBA holding older brother thinks of my level of understanding, I do know that Managament's job is to maximize value for the share holders (of which I am one). However the fact that our current wages were negotiated more than six years ago, and that our starting FOs make less than $20,000 flying a four engine jet and top out at about 29K (and we currently have plenty of FOs who have topped out the FO scale) needs to be changed.
All the while the President CEO and Director of Mesaba Holdings, Paul Foley, took a 36% pay raise last year. The SLT here at Mesaba Aviation was equally rewarded for their work. Not only does Foley get plenty of cash, but he commutes from NY and the company pays him extra money to do so. How many airlines out there cover travel and housing expenses for commuting pilots?
I guess my point is that if our SLT were interested in the success of the airline more than the growth of their own bank accounts then they need to step up to the plate, offer us a decent contract with liveable wages and work rules so that we can continue to attract the type of quality people we currently have working in the flight deck.
Oh, and they need to cut the fat at the G.O. I am still waiting to find out why our Mair Holding officers (all two of them) needed to move into seperate offices in downtown MSP. My best guess is they knew that they would be too embarassed to show themselves to the rank and file with all the money they wasted buying that montana based-dark-cloud-on-the-horizon airline to try and scare us.
acaTerry
SAPM
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 2,393
185flyer,
I have read this thread from start to end, and I agree with the others: I think it would behoove you to step back and be quiet. You are offering opinions on subjects that you know nothing about.
It would be like me going in to a hospital and telling the doctors how easy they have it, how I think a surgery should be performed, etc.
You say you have a right to your opinion, but how can you even formulate an opinion on issues that you are so ignorant about? A 200 hour private pilot spouting off opinions and trying to educate airline pilots who ARE in the thick of it is a waste of time and a confession of stupidity.
I am a military type, and until I got to the airlines, I too thought low of unions. In the military mind, especially the Marines, you did your job and that was that. The job got done, you were taken care of, and that's how it was. The officers had to make sure certain things happened, the NCO's and nonrates made these things happen, and it was all a cooperative and mutually respected relationship.
But something I found out quickly was that a union is necessary in the airlines and that management will thrive on any weakness in a pilot group whether it is their own pilot group or another airlines group that "lowers the bar".
You see, unlike it was in the good ole USMC, people in the upper levels have no respect for the welfare of their subordinates in the airline business. As a staff level NCO, I would see to it that my Marines were fed, rested adeqautely, and equipped. THEN, and only when they "got theirs" would I get mine. This is not so in the airlines. In the airlines, management gets theirs first, then tells you that there is not enough to go around for you. Even if there is plenty to go around, they will tell you that it's too bad because "well, XYZ airline's pilots are doing it for X dollars". Couple this with those who are not even in the job yet telling you "Oh, I'd do it for nothing, I just want to fly a jet". Well, spooge off in your pants for 6 months until the reality of flying a jet, making someone else rich while your wife and kid are wondering how can daddy be gone so much and make no money gets quite old. You have no idea the long, hard, expensive road it takes to get an airline pilot job. Then to be told (and have it published in your state newspaper) that a B757 should max out at $90,000. My brother-in-law got a starting pay offer nearly that at an airline to be a computer programmer! He's only 29!! A pilot is well into their 30's by the time they get a major airline job. Then forced retirement at age 60? How can you pay off the HUGE debt, pay for your house, save for kids college and put into a retirement if you max out at 90 thousand in less than 30 years?
Especially when some kids with low time and NO EXPERIENCE come in and lower the pay you make because they "just want to fly a jet" or "will gladly trade places with you" etc etc. Whores they are....
Please, let those who know what they are talking about educate those who do not. Opinions are worthless until you have some idea what you are talking about. In the meantime, act more like a sponge and try to learn from those who DO know what they are talking about. Perhaps one day it will be YOU who is watching YOUR profession fall apart. See how you feel then. THEN you can give an opinion. In the meantime, to quote a great genius of all times......ZIP IT SCOTTY.....
AND ANOTHER THING....the question about why does a pilot deserve a pension when HP has other groups without one. YOU MUST BE A LIBERAL. Give it all to everyone or no one gets it. How about I don't get to keep my house because someone else out there does not have a house?
Show me a company that gives all it's employees the same package. Pilots are a skilled labor. Rampers, for example, are not a skilled labor. (NO WAY AM I LOWERING YOU RAMPERS, YOU GUYS ARE GREAT) Why doesn't Parker give up his retirement? Use your reason here. Does not work does it? Again, turn off your transmitter and turn on your receiver. Then again, you sound like someone pursuing a management degree. So you probably do not care anyway. Enjoy the 3 houses.
I have read this thread from start to end, and I agree with the others: I think it would behoove you to step back and be quiet. You are offering opinions on subjects that you know nothing about.
It would be like me going in to a hospital and telling the doctors how easy they have it, how I think a surgery should be performed, etc.
You say you have a right to your opinion, but how can you even formulate an opinion on issues that you are so ignorant about? A 200 hour private pilot spouting off opinions and trying to educate airline pilots who ARE in the thick of it is a waste of time and a confession of stupidity.
I am a military type, and until I got to the airlines, I too thought low of unions. In the military mind, especially the Marines, you did your job and that was that. The job got done, you were taken care of, and that's how it was. The officers had to make sure certain things happened, the NCO's and nonrates made these things happen, and it was all a cooperative and mutually respected relationship.
But something I found out quickly was that a union is necessary in the airlines and that management will thrive on any weakness in a pilot group whether it is their own pilot group or another airlines group that "lowers the bar".
You see, unlike it was in the good ole USMC, people in the upper levels have no respect for the welfare of their subordinates in the airline business. As a staff level NCO, I would see to it that my Marines were fed, rested adeqautely, and equipped. THEN, and only when they "got theirs" would I get mine. This is not so in the airlines. In the airlines, management gets theirs first, then tells you that there is not enough to go around for you. Even if there is plenty to go around, they will tell you that it's too bad because "well, XYZ airline's pilots are doing it for X dollars". Couple this with those who are not even in the job yet telling you "Oh, I'd do it for nothing, I just want to fly a jet". Well, spooge off in your pants for 6 months until the reality of flying a jet, making someone else rich while your wife and kid are wondering how can daddy be gone so much and make no money gets quite old. You have no idea the long, hard, expensive road it takes to get an airline pilot job. Then to be told (and have it published in your state newspaper) that a B757 should max out at $90,000. My brother-in-law got a starting pay offer nearly that at an airline to be a computer programmer! He's only 29!! A pilot is well into their 30's by the time they get a major airline job. Then forced retirement at age 60? How can you pay off the HUGE debt, pay for your house, save for kids college and put into a retirement if you max out at 90 thousand in less than 30 years?
Especially when some kids with low time and NO EXPERIENCE come in and lower the pay you make because they "just want to fly a jet" or "will gladly trade places with you" etc etc. Whores they are....
Please, let those who know what they are talking about educate those who do not. Opinions are worthless until you have some idea what you are talking about. In the meantime, act more like a sponge and try to learn from those who DO know what they are talking about. Perhaps one day it will be YOU who is watching YOUR profession fall apart. See how you feel then. THEN you can give an opinion. In the meantime, to quote a great genius of all times......ZIP IT SCOTTY.....
AND ANOTHER THING....the question about why does a pilot deserve a pension when HP has other groups without one. YOU MUST BE A LIBERAL. Give it all to everyone or no one gets it. How about I don't get to keep my house because someone else out there does not have a house?
Show me a company that gives all it's employees the same package. Pilots are a skilled labor. Rampers, for example, are not a skilled labor. (NO WAY AM I LOWERING YOU RAMPERS, YOU GUYS ARE GREAT) Why doesn't Parker give up his retirement? Use your reason here. Does not work does it? Again, turn off your transmitter and turn on your receiver. Then again, you sound like someone pursuing a management degree. So you probably do not care anyway. Enjoy the 3 houses.
Last edited:
Simon Says
New Airbus Regional Jet
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2001
- Posts
- 1,036
saabservant
disgruntled
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2003
- Posts
- 337
acaTerry:
Thanks so much for speaking for all of us who are fighting the Mesa precedent! I too am living the same dream, for low pay, no time at home, and no retirement. Maybe I should have stayed in the Corps!
We really do need to educate our young aviators who say they will fly for food. They may feel cool for a year, but then they realize this is a career, a profession, and they have sold themselves out. We at XJ won't play that anymore!
Semper Fidelis
(to country, corps, and now my ALPA brothers)
Thanks so much for speaking for all of us who are fighting the Mesa precedent! I too am living the same dream, for low pay, no time at home, and no retirement. Maybe I should have stayed in the Corps!
We really do need to educate our young aviators who say they will fly for food. They may feel cool for a year, but then they realize this is a career, a profession, and they have sold themselves out. We at XJ won't play that anymore!
Semper Fidelis
(to country, corps, and now my ALPA brothers)
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
