MESA -200s for UAL...TOAST

[spitfire1500]

You guys on here crack me up!! Everyone giving wishful thinking reasons on how and why they're going to get everyone elses regional flying!!

 

[pdub20s]

They are estimating the furlough will take us down to around seniority number 860. That is down from a high of over 1500 if I remember correctly.

That includes the Dash 8 and CRJ 200 reductions. It's going to be interesting to see how we can avoid Chapter 11 with all those aircraft sitting in the desert with the meters still running.

Good luck to us all.

650 pilots..this is almost as bad as the TWA/AA merger

 

[LazyLightnin']

How everyone but ASA reads it:
What it means is...ASA will pick up some UAL flying because DAL will get rid of some ASA 200's......

How the ASAholes read it:
We have a far superior product and are soooooo great....everyone wants to hire us.

Igits.

Please don't entertain that clown.. He's not an ASA pilot.

 

[BoilerUP]

650 pilots..this is almost as bad as the TWA/AA merger

While the situation with job losses at MAG are unfortunate...they don't hold a CANDLE to AA/TWA.

 

[79%N1]

While the situation with job losses at MAG are unfortunate...they don't hold a CANDLE to AA/TWA.

Why? A job is a job. Thats how those people feed their families. Why is there a difference? Are mainline employees a preferred class and their lives and jobs are more valuable?

 

[BoilerUP]

Why? A job is a job. Thats how those people feed their families. Why is there a difference? Are mainline employees a preferred class and their lives and jobs are more valuable?

Uh, no...the TWA/AA job losses were of a magnitude at least 300% greater than what Mesa is facing.

THAT is why it doesn't come close.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Why? A job is a job. Thats how those people feed their families. Why is there a difference? Are mainline employees a preferred class and their lives and jobs are more valuable?

No they don't. People can't feed their family on a regional first officer salary alone.

 

[Fltlvls]

All the regionals have one foot on the banana peel and the other in the grave when mainline is in control..Remember that !!!..You could be next.

 

[Hobit]

All the insignificant info aside... This did become some what of an ASA thread right?!

Keep it up!

 

[samballs]

They are estimating the furlough will take us down to around seniority number 860. That is down from a high of over 1500 if I remember correctly.

That includes the Dash 8 and CRJ 200 reductions. It's going to be interesting to see how we can avoid Chapter 11 with all those aircraft sitting in the desert with the meters still running.

Good luck to us all.

Comair had over 1800 then you guys came to DCI and now we have 900 or so. Can't say I'll shed a tear tonight. hows that quick upgrade going

 

[johnpeace]

I know Mesa sucks, but lets think about the pilots involved here

You know, how come on flight info, when a crap-ass airline is finally about to go under and take it's due punishment for being so BAD, I'm reminded to think about the pilots.

...but when a pilot decided it's a better deal for him/herself and their family to remain at their regional carrier and work for better wages/rules, more flying and growth...I'm told to consider the ill effect on the industry.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[BrickTop]

its not a wrap for mesa, something will happen to keep them around and hey guys I know Mesa sucks, but lets think about the pilots involved here, that would be a lot of guys who would join the unemployed ranks. Maybe Skywest will buy them to get into the USair network.

We would not buy them. With Their purchase comes their debt.

 

[Flyprdu]

Rumor has it that Mesa has been in Manhattan shopping corporate law firms for Chapter 7 bankruptcy proceedings... discuss.

 

[Fltlvls]

We would not buy them. With Their purchase comes their debt.

uhh.. You are sharp as a marble.That would be true with any airline, there is always some sort of debt you acquire.

 

[Fltlvls]

Rumor has it that Mesa has been in Manhattan shopping corporate law firms for Chapter 7 bankruptcy proceedings... discuss.

I'm thinking that would be YOUR RUMOR!!!

BTW...Chapter 7 is a total discharge of personal debt.
Chapter 11 would be for a business reorganizing their debt.
There is a difference.

 

[Jar Jar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7KK7bXJV2c&feature=related

Toasty!!

mesa sucks

 

[sayrejm]

uhh.. You are sharp as a marble.That would be true with any airline, there is always some sort of debt you acquire.

yes, but how much debt?

 

[mesaserf]

Comair had over 1800 then you guys came to DCI and now we have 900 or so. Can't say I'll shed a tear tonight. hows that quick upgrade going

Well, I got my first type rating over ten years ago, so I'm not part of that crowd.

But you do bring up a good point I've been preaching for years. As main line airlines consolidate they will continue to aggressively pursue the lowest bid for contract flying. That means that the regional airlines will constantly fight for the scraps and try to under bid the competition to maintain flying or to get additional flying. Remember what Big D did with the CRJ 900 flying they took from Mesa? They dangled that carrot in front of all the other regional airlines until they got what they thought was the lowest bid.

So this will tell you what to expect in the future. We will be constantly be pitted against one another to see who can low ball a contract. We all lose while main line management has a ready made whip saw tool to use against regional airlines as well as main line pilot groups.

Long term the only answer so far is this. One..Do like Sky West and get so big that even with thin profit margins you can make a buck. (The Wall Mart Effect)

Or..Like Republic, make a play at becoming a National LLC by buying other name brands with your war chest and make a play at going it alone.

Food for thought.

 

[Fltlvls]

yes, but how much debt?

I have no idea.. I know nothing about their debt.

 

[Flyprdu]

I'm thinking that would be YOUR RUMOR!!!

BTW...Chapter 7 is a total discharge of personal debt.
Chapter 11 would be for a business reorganizing their debt.
There is a difference.

http://www.uscourts.gov/bankruptcycourts/bankruptcybasics/chapter7.html
I understand what I typed. And I understand the ramifications of Chapter 7 vs Chapter 11.

I don't see how Chapter 11 could serve Mesa. Any BK gives Delta an immediate out of their service agreement, which Delta has been begging for. If Mesa goes into BK... it is not coming back out.

 

[rickair7777]

http://www.uscourts.gov/bankruptcycourts/bankruptcybasics/chapter7.html
I understand what I typed. And I understand the ramifications of Chapter 7 vs Chapter 11.

I don't see how Chapter 11 could serve Mesa. Any BK gives Delta an immediate out of their service agreement, which Delta has been begging for. If Mesa goes into BK... it is not coming back out.

Good chance he's right. The bankruptcy laws changed in 2005, it's harder to do Ch.11 nowdays...you need financing. Would mesa be able to get loans while in BK? This is not really a good time to try that...

BTW, companies can do either Ch.11(reorganiztion) or Ch.7 (liquidation). An attempt at Ch.11 can easily get forced into Ch.7 by the court or creditors.

Managers usually prefer Ch.11...it means they can keep their jobs.

 

[Fltlvls]

Good chance he's right. The bankruptcy laws changed in 2005, it's harder to do Ch.11 nowdays...you need financing. Would mesa be able to get loans while in BK? This is not really a good time to try that...

BTW, companies can do either Ch.11(reorganiztion) or Ch.7 (liquidation). An attempt at Ch.11 can easily get forced into Ch.7 by the court or creditors.

Managers usually prefer Ch.11...it means they can keep their jobs.

Chapter 7 is much harder to get since the law changed in 05. They would rather force you to pay back some of the debt rather than leaving the creditors holding the bag. Some airlines stay in chapter 11 for years before they come out.Who said the Delta flying was tied into a bankruptcy?

 

[Flyprdu]

Chapter 7 is much harder to get since the law changed in 05. They would rather force you to pay back some of the debt rather than leaving the creditors holding the bag. Some airlines stay in chapter 11 for years before they come out.Who said the Delta flying was tied into a bankruptcy?

Do you even know what you are talking about? Chapter 7 is much more lucrative in the short run as creditors get whatever proceeds are made from the liquidation of the company.

If the creditors do not have faith that Mesa can return to profitability, they will push for Chapter 7. They can't return their parked airplanes without huge penalties. There is no new contract flying out there for 50 seat airplanes.

So unless they plan on spinning off into branded flying... and praying that they can hold on until a major will take pity on them, there is really no other option.

They have kicked the can down the road as far as it could go.

As far as a bankruptcy clause in the service agreement: it is standard language that any major changes to status of the serving company renders the service agreement void.

 

[aerobat21]

flush the turd

 

[Fltlvls]

Do you even know what you are talking about? Chapter 7 is much more lucrative in the short run as creditors get whatever proceeds are made from the liquidation of the company.

If the creditors do not have faith that Mesa can return to profitability, they will push for Chapter 7. They can't return their parked airplanes without huge penalties. There is no new contract flying out there for 50 seat airplanes.

So unless they plan on spinning off into branded flying... and praying that they can hold on until a major will take pity on them, there is really no other option.

They have kicked the can down the road as far as it could go.

As far as a bankruptcy clause in the service agreement: it is standard language that any major changes to status of the serving company renders the service
agreement void.

Mesa will go to the creditors to renegotiate leases on airplanes and if the creditors don't want to play then they will give them back. As far as the ERJs I'm sure they will give those back and just fly 70-90 seaters and become a smaller company and will probably expand Hawaii some more, who knows .. Everyone needs to stop using their "expert" advice about how the outcome will be when nothing has happened yet.

 

[dooork]

Mesa will go to the creditors to renegotiate leases on airplanes and if the creditors don't want to play then they will give them back. As far as the ERJs I'm sure they will give those back and just fly 70-90 seaters and become a smaller company and will probably expand Hawaii some more, who knows .. Everyone needs to stop using their "expert" advice about how the outcome will be when nothing has happened yet.

Bingo.

 

[Flybywire44]

What it means, is you are just one step closer to a furlough, with SKYW buying more flying, your job is on the line, and I welcome you being put on the street and returning to your old occupation as a dog fluffer.
PBR
For the record, you work(on your knees) at Gheyjhets not ASA.

Section 1.J of the ASA contract:
J. No Furlough
For the duration of this Agreement, notwithstanding the provisions of Section 23 and the provisions of paragraph 1.E.4.. above, the Company will not furlough any pilot whose name is on the seniority list on the effective date of this Agreement except in circumstances over which the Company has no control. The term “circumstances over which the Company has no control” includes, but is not limited to, a natural disaster; grounding of a substantial number of the Company’s aircraft by a government agency; reduction in flying operations because of a decrease in available fuel supply or other critical material due to either governmental action or commercial suppliers being unable to provide sufficient fuel or other critical materials for the Company’s operations; revocation of the Company’s operating certificate; war emergency; owner’s delay in delivery of aircraft scheduled for delivery; or manufacturer’s delay in delivery of new aircraft scheduled for delivery. The term “circumstances over which the Company has no control” will not include the price of fuel or other supplies, the price of aircraft, the state of the economy, the financial state of the Company, or the relative profitability or unprofitability of the Company’s then-current operations.​

Skywest has to buy or at least acquire more planes for ASA. Otherwise when ASA loses 6 more planes in the Spring we be overstaffed (or staffed perfectly for the summer?), PBS would further decrease our staffing needs. However, we are short on 700 crews now with most 700 pilots flying 90+ hour lines. In October, it was common to have only one reserve Captain. Maybe additional haul losses and PBS would staff us perfectly for the summer?

Either way, ASA cannot furlough anymore pilots. If we find ourselves with too many pilots, another option for Skywest Inc to control costs is to transfer flying/planes from Skywest to ASA. However, Skywest does not want to push their pilots to form a Union and gain work rules like no furlough clause; something their in house union could never provide.

No more furloughs can take place at ASA no matter how many planes ASA loses. However, MESA will lose their flying at Delta in 2010 and hopefully ASA will recapture its 6 aircraft from some avenue other than Skywest; our own blood.

 

[McNugent]

From what I've been told (honestly, a very reliable source) ASA will not lose those 6 airplanes at all. They will continue to fly, but on an "at risk" basis with Delta. So I'm assuming ASA/SKYW will pay for the gas and take the hit when the flights are empty. I doubt we'd have gotten rid of the 20 even if the UAL deal fell through.

 

[Tarzan]

No more furloughs can take place at ASA no matter how many planes ASA loses. However, MESA will lose their flying at Delta in 2010 and hopefully ASA will recapture its 6 aircraft from some avenue other than Skywest; our own blood.

Easy Francis. He was talking to about the GoJet flame baiter.

 

[JumpersAway]

The 200's for 700's swap is the financing that Ornstein approached Skywest about. Apparently, JO wanted Skywest Inc. to purchase the 700's, and then lease them to Mesa. Jerry told JO to go pound sand- if that doesn't cry of desperation, I don't know what does. The grim reaper is upon Mesa!