Maybe a reson to vote Dem.

[Medeco]

Of course it was slanted, but alot closer to the truth.

Funny, you think conservatives have not helped to bring safety to the work place.

Last, it was not my description, but rather an email that is getting circulated for the fun of it.

Medeco

Proud to call America home!

 

[acaTerry]

How about this: A womans "right to choose" is not in the constitution, and I don't think the founding fathers even thought of it. The did say how ever that if something is not granted or prohibited, then the states have the right to decide for themselves.

I don't like abortion, but I think it should be up to the states to decide.

What DOES appear in the Constitution are the words : "the right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". Note it is NOT the pursuit of life, and the right to happiness, which seems to be what the liberals want to change it to. the RIGHT to life, as in the US Constitution, can not be denied, even under the disguise of "choice". Slaveowners in early America, and Hitler in Germany decided who counted as human. I guess we are doing it all over again today.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Slaveowners in early America, and Hitler in Germany decided who counted as human. I guess we are doing it all over again today.

Yes...compare us to some of the most vile example of human beings and SURELY we will see the error in our ways and agree

Survey says...!!!


WRONG!

*Show him what he's won today, Bob!*

"Well Johnny, it's a big warm glass of SHUT THE HELL UP!"

Thanks for playing...

 

[PCL_128]

Yes...compare us to some of the most vile example of human beings and SURELY we will see the error in our ways and agree

I agree with him. One hundred years from now, Americans will be looking back on this time in history as a disgrace where we allowed countless thousands of innocent and helpless babies to be brutally murdered. Future Americans will look back on this time just as we look back on the time of slavery.

 

[acaTerry]

CoPilot Doug,
Elaborate and tell me how it's different, and I notice you omitted the words in the Constitution. Hmmmm.....
And we've gone past it with the "death with dignity". Now for a fee you can off your burdonesome relatives who you are tired of so they can "die in peace".

 

[acaTerry]

And, in other fronts....
http://www.eyeblast.tv/Public/Video.aspx?rsrcID=2036

 

[Soverytired]

Your idea has been tried before by a union called PATCO. Remember them? Didn't turn out so well. It wouldn't for us either.

The air traffic controllers? Not even the same thing.

• ATC are federal government workers, not private company employee's
• As a condition of employment, ATCs sign an agreement not to strike. Airline pilots never did.
• PATCO did an "all or nothing" strike. Not for a day, or 3 days, or a week.
• ATC's ARE replaceable. It wasn't easy, but clearly, they overestimated their own value. (Pilots might also have this problem)

They tried to cripple this country to enrich themselves at the expense of the US taxpayer. F them. People would have died (organ transplants, lifeguard flights), businesses would have lost billions, etc. I have little sympathy for their methods or their approach.

ATC-er's going on strike would be no different than the US Military going on strike indefinitely and holding out for, say, $1 million dollars per private.

I'm not thrilled at the prospect of pilots trying the same stunt. However, this IS what unions are supposed to do, pilots don't sign "no strike" clauses, and the US taxpayer isn't getting directly stiffed with the bill if pilots overreach.

Overreaching would be self-correcting when the airline just went out of business.

 

[CopilotDoug]

CoPilot Doug,
Elaborate and tell me how it's different, and I notice you omitted the words in the Constitution. Hmmmm.....
And we've gone past it with the "death with dignity".

Is it NOT apparent to you? I am CLEARLY a NAZI SLAVE OWNER (maybe you want to say I eat babies too?)

PM me if you wish to discuss...otherwise, back to the topic...

Why might I not vote for Barrack Obama? The man's voting record. How many times did he take the easy way out and vote "Present"?

That's a big track record of indeciciveness. He's just a puppet for the democrats. One that hasn't been in major politics long enough to screw up.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The air traffic controllers? Not even the same thing.

• ATC are federal government workers, not private company employers
• As a condition of employment, ATCs sign as a condition of employment an agreement not to strike. Airline pilots never did.
• PATCO did an "all or nothing" strike. Not for a day, or 3 days, or a week.
• ATC's ARE replaceable. It wasn't easy, but clearly, they overestimated their own value. (Pilots might also have this problem)

They tried to cripple this country to enrich themselves at the expense of the US taxpayer. F them. People would have died (organ transplants, lifeguard flights), businesses would have lost billions, etc. I have little sympathy for their methods or their approach.

ATC-er's going on strike was no different than the US Military going on strike indefinitely and holding out for $1 million dollars per private.

I'm not thrilled at pilots trying the same stunt. However, this IS what unions are supposed to do, pilots don't sign "no strike" clauses, and the US taxpayer isn't getting directly stiffed with the bill if pilots overreach.

Overreaching would be self-correcting when the airline just went out of business.

...and to add to your very accurate post: Reagan had an idea that they were going to strike, so he was having replacements trained. Reagan feared other unionized government organizations would strike if PATCO wasn't put down.

If it's to work for pilots though...they need to use the element of surprise.

 

[PCL_128]

[*]As a condition of employment, ATCs sign an agreement not to strike. Airline pilots never did.

The RLA prohibits us from striking without NMB release just like the law prohibits controllers from striking. It's the exact same prohibition with the exact same penalties. In addition, many pilot contracts do include no-strike clauses that prohibit the pilots from striking until receiving an NMB release.

[*]PATCO did an "all or nothing" strike. Not for a day, or 3 days, or a week.

Makes no difference, as they were replaced immediately.

[*]ATC's ARE replaceable. It wasn't easy, but clearly, they overestimated their own value. (Pilots might also have this problem)[/LIST]

Yes, pilots would have this problem. Again, a huge number of pilots would cross the lines under this scenario, and that makes it unworkable. They wouldn't need replacements, as they could keep enough of the system working simply with SCABs.

They tried to cripple this country to enrich themselves at the expense of the US taxpayer. F them. People would have died (organ transplants, lifeguard flights), businesses would have lost billions, etc. I have little sympathy for their methods or their approach.

Controllers should have just as much right to advance and defend their profession that every other labor group does. I find your above statements to be out of line.

 

[Soverytired]

Controllers should have just as much right to advance and defend their profession that every other labor group does. I find your above statements to be out of line.

I see.

And yet you failed to address the hypothetical of "What if the US military went on strike and demanded a $1 million per private pay raise?" Why not now, during wartime? Strike when the iron is hot and all that.

Clearly, some PUBLIC services are too critical to US security and well-being that limiting their ability to strike is necessary. I believe ATC is one such service; you disagree. Yet is there ANY PUBLIC entity that you think should be prohibited from work actions as a matter of law?

No matter. Ultimately, I find your reasoning inconsistent.

1. I'm arguing FOR a hypothetical limited nationwide airline strike, legal or not, because the only effective "chip" unions have is a credible strike threat.
2. You say that it can't be done, because the laws don't allow it.
3. You then imply that groups (like controllers) who strike in defiance of the law somehow were treated unfairly when they knowingly broke the law.

Power by unions is taken, not legislated. Again, I'm not at all comfortable with this approach, but this is the reality of an effective union. We're certainly not at a point in the US where this is remotely necessary . . . but the time may come again someday.

After all, if you truly believe your party of choice (whichever, doesn't matter) will simply legislate your right to strike at will, why stop there? Why not legislate a "fair wage" for your salary? Why have any free market, private industry, or competition at all?

 

[PCL_128]

And yet you failed to address the hypothetical of "What if the US military went on strike and demanded a $1 million per private pay raise?" Why not now, during wartime? Strike when the iron is hot and all that.

The military is not the same as other public service occupations. I don't find this analogy to be reasonable.

[*]I'm arguing FOR a hypothetical limited nationwide airline strike, legal or not, because the only effective "chip" unions have is a credible strike threat.

It isn't a credible threat, because too many will cross the lines. That's the problem.

[*]You say that it can't be done, because the laws don't allow it.

No, I say it can't be done because too many pilots will comply with the law rather than following the marching orders of their union leaders.

[*]You then imply that groups (like controllers) who strike in defiance of the law somehow were treated unfairly.[/LIST]

Incorrect. The controllers were not treated unfairly in regards to the law at the time. Reagan had every legal right to do what he did. My argument is that the law itself is unfair and should be changed.

Why not legislate a "fair wage" for your salary?

I am in favor of a minimum "living wage" of $10/hr indexed for inflation.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

So your happy with your pay and QOL B?

Given the choices I had yes, I am. However I know when anti-union, anti intelligence and anti-common sense is running for pres. I dont come on here preaching to the masses because hell...I hate it when people do that to me... All I know is that I know who I'm voting for and nobody is going to change that.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Some of you on the left side of the aisle are forgetting the fact that it requires a profitable company to bargain with if you want to bargain for more money and better schedules......

The most labor friendly govt. in the world doesn't do any good if your company is losing money....

I want govt. that is pro-business....If we can get the airlines making money and if ALPA can start acting like a union....the rest will fall into place....

If we get Obama and ALPA continues to act the same....many of you will not like the results.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080608/ap_on_re_us/iraq_katrina

 

[DoinTime]

I want govt. that is pro-business....If we can get the airlines making money and if ALPA can start acting like a union....the rest will fall into place

Your pro-business government will strip Unions of their rights in order to boost corporate profits. How does that help anything "fall into place" for the workers?

...or is it that you want a pro-business government that is pro-business in every way except for being extremely liberal with labor laws?

...or perhaps you want a pro-business government to create a perfect environment for airlines to make money then you want ALPA to come into the board room with baseball bats and after kicking the crap out of all the executives then proceed to pick their pockets.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Your pro-business government will strip Unions of their rights in order to boost corporate profits. How does that help anything "fall into place" for the workers?

...or is it that you want a pro-business government that is pro-business in every way except for being extremely liberal with labor laws?

...or perhaps you want a pro-business government to create a perfect environment for airlines to make money then you want ALPA to come into the board room with baseball bats and after kicking the crap out of all the executives then proceed to pick their pockets.

I want govt. that is best for the economy, the country, and for my industry....If my company and my industry doesn't make money....what good is the ability to strike? How much are you going to gain if the industry keeps losing money?

By the way....What are you refering to when you say "boost corporate profits"? Surely you aren't talking about the airline industry.....unless you mean boost the losses......

 

[acaTerry]

I was / am a big Reagan fan, but had to side with the controllers somewhat. You couldn't pay me enough for their job. Well, maybe if I were a local controller in Valdosta GA.

 

[CA1900]

They tried to cripple this country to enrich themselves at the expense of the US taxpayer. F them.

You're wrong on many levels about the PATCO strike.


There was more to the ATC strike than simply wanting more money. Among other things, the controllers wanted to be paid for the overtime worked! (Wow, talk about unreasonble... )

The way the pay structure was set up, you took your annual base salary and divided it by 26, and that was your biweekly salary cap. Your paycheck could never be higher than that cap, but it could be lower.

If you worked 60 hours two weeks, you were paid for 60. But if you worked 90 hours, you were only paid for 80, because the extra hours would put you over the "cap."

"So don't work overtime," you're thinking. Not an option due to staffing. They were required to work overtime to keep their jobs, and the salary structure meant this mandatory overtime was unpaid.


"F them" for wanting to get paid for the hours they put in? I'm sure your employer would never change the conditions of your employment after you're already on property...

 

[Soverytired]

You're wrong on many levels about the PATCO strike.

"F them" for wanting to get paid for the hours they put in? I'm sure your employer would never change the conditions of your employment after you're already on property...

1. Every labor group strike is ALWAYS about money.
2. I don't disagree with them wanting more . . .it's human nature. I disagree with their methods.
3. Post strike controllers make more than generals in the armed forces, more than government doctors, scientists, pilots . . you name it. (at least those in the area centers working during the late 80's, 90's, and early 00's)
4. They make SO MUCH that money allocated to the FAA is going to controller wages and not much else. Improvements that could benefit all suffer, and the "B" payscale is an acknowledgment of this.

I don't begrudge them a penny of it though. Their union NEGOTIATED for it. It took time, it took unity, it took luck (J. Garvey, Clinton and a weak GW) and it took brains, but they got it fair and square. Unlike the PATCO guys, who threw a 3-year old screaming fit and said "Give it to me NOW" or we'll shut down the entire US of A.

F them.