Massive Air Force reduction

[Kuma]

What about the 6th SOS?

Duece 130 sounds like he believes that the 16th will go to Cannon. I think that he has a couple of proposed 4th units mixed into his posting. Are they going to redistribute all of AFSOC? Are the 4th and the 16th going to remix their assets? If so, I haven't heard any rumors about the 6th SOS. What is their future? Cannon or Hurlburt? How much political power do they hold?

 

[DaveGriffin]

The problem with the AF, dominated by fighter jock Generals, is their neglect of the CAS mission while they over fund the F-22. Adding an attack capability to the F-22, after the fact, to say it can perform an attack mission is BS. They had to do this as the air superiority mission lost its strategic dominance and the attack mission gained in importance. It was originally designed in the late 80’s solely for air-to-air.

The good news in all of this though is that the Global Hawk just passed the 5,000 hour milestone for combat operations. That technology and capability will have a far greater impact on the future of our war fighting capabilities than the F-22 ever will.

 

[stonewall]

The problem with the AF, dominated by fighter jock Generals, is their neglect of the CAS mission while they over fund the F-22. Adding an attack capability to the F-22, after the fact, to say it can perform an attack mission is BS. They had to do this as the air superiority mission lost its strategic dominance and the attack mission gained in importance. It was originally designed in the late 80’s solely for air-to-air.

The good news in all of this though is that the Global Hawk just passed the 5,000 hour milestone for combat operations. That technology and capability will have a far greater impact on the future of our war fighting capabilities than the F-22 ever will.

Nobody is neglecting CAS. As I've stated earlier, I recently left AD as a member of an Operational Test squadron. The overwhelming majority of our work was CAS and Interdiction-related. You are woefully uninformed in this arena.

 

[Huggyu2]

"5000 hours of combat operations": GH's 5000 hours is just that: logging time. The airframe doesn't care whether it is over the Middle East or California. Now the question is "what has it done" WRT reconnaissance? That jury is not convinced that GH is doing all that the flightinfo.com people think it is.
What SIGINT capability does GH have?
What's it payload capability?
How long does it take to get to altitude?
How robust is the reachback?
How far over budget is GH? That's your tax dollars, by the way.
That said, DaveG is probably right in that Mr Rumsfeld and Co. want to go the way of UAV's, and might be willing to accept a loss of capability for a number of years if it means we can develop this technology. GH might get it in a few years, and with a few more billion $$$. But there will be a significant gap.
Plus, with all that money they're sending to GH, I might look that way for a new job!

 

[T2Pilot]

Not to hijack the thread, but T2Pilot, what are your thoughts on the Cannon rumors? Any thoughts on which squadrons are going and when? Everyone from the 16th says the 4th is going and everyone from the 4th say the 16th is going--never ending cycle of rumors!

Someone is going to move there and certainly some gunships will move. I've heard the 4th is more likely but I've also heard rumors of eventually splitting the 4th once the new gunships arrive. Who else is anyone's guess. I've heard the CV-22 and MC-130H are high on the list but there is a strong case for the 319th and 6th SOS to move. It's a fast moving train though so I expect there will be a decision this FY. There is also talk of bringing the 352 and 353rd back to CONUS so that throws a lot of variables into the mix. Expect a lot more rumors in the meantime. Back in 1995 I was at a conference where everyone was told by the CC that the overseas units were coming back and we were going to open a west coast wing and split the forces between there and Hurlburt in the near future. That plan died a quick death when folks outside DoD learned of it.

 

[DaveGriffin]

"5000 hours of combat operations": GH's 5000 hours is just that: logging time. The airframe doesn't care whether it is over the Middle East or California. Now the question is "what has it done" WRT reconnaissance? That jury is not convinced that GH is doing all that the flightinfo.com people think it is.
What SIGINT capability does GH have?
What's it payload capability?
How long does it take to get to altitude?
How robust is the reachback?
How far over budget is GH? That's your tax dollars, by the way.
That said, DaveG is probably right in that Mr Rumsfeld and Co. want to go the way of UAV's, and might be willing to accept a loss of capability for a number of years if it means we can develop this technology. GH might get it in a few years, and with a few more billion $$$. But there will be a significant gap.
Plus, with all that money they're sending to GH, I might look that way for a new job!

Huggy;
If you get a job working with the UAV program, try to work with the MQ-9 Predator B, they are the good ones.

 

[dtfl]

Man, it'll be the biggest dogfight AFSOC has seen in years. I guess it'll come down to which community has the highest ranking guys that own property in Navarre and Destin! Seriously, alot of it will also depend on how they integrate the 919th SOW into the mix. My guess is that the U Boats will go to Canon, along with the MC-130H, CV-22, and Predator. The MC-130E will stay at Duke until it dies, the MC-130P will move to Hurlburt with the 9th and 5th, the AC-130H gunship will stay and will be flown by the 16th and the 711th, the Paves will stay until they go away, and, as for the CLR, who knows. Oh, and the PC-28 will stay. Am I missing anyone???

Close. Have you seen the COA briefing? Bunny gave it to me over a month ago. Rumor is the 5th will cease to exist and the 19th will take that NAME due to lineage. The 919th will become flights of associate "flights".
The Cannon deal - my $.02 - an overreaction to the redesignation of the ERCF that will be occurring once the new users move into town. The SOW has a team submitting requirements for new ranges...so who knows what will happen. The Commando Vision 2000 that T2 Pilot refers to did die...but I bet the AFSOC folks would rather have that than the chance to live in Clovis. Yee haw.

 

[dtfl]

Duece 130 sounds like he believes that the 16th will go to Cannon. I think that he has a couple of proposed 4th units mixed into his posting. Are they going to redistribute all of AFSOC? Are the 4th and the 16th going to remix their assets? If so, I haven't heard any rumors about the 6th SOS. What is their future? Cannon or Hurlburt? How much political power do they hold?

Their range usage is so little that I dont think there is a reason to send them. AFSOC, send the CV22 please...I dont want it dropping out of the sky onto my car while driving down Hwy 98.

 

[Spyguy]

Huggy;
If you get a job working with the UAV program, try to work with the MQ-9 Predator B, they are the good ones.

True,
I ran into a bunch of Global Hawk guys in Lajes a year or so ago. It seems that we have lost several (not going to disclose how many) already in gulf. Let's just say it isn't a small percentage of the fleet. The Hawk is a POS. Stuff it is suppose to do and be capable of, just doesn't seem to work. The MQ-9 works quite well. At least we still have VQ, RJ's, RC-12's and the other unmentionables out there still flying manned missions and doing a fairly good job.
I still think the Air Force and Navy are still wasting money on programs that aren't as important as others. The F-22, DDX, San Antonio class, JSF, Virginia class, and on and on and on. I love it when the Air Force spun the Indian Su fiasco as a reason for the F-22, just when there started to be questions about the need for a new fighter.

 

[Huggyu2]

Huggy;
If you get a job working with the UAV program, try to work with the MQ-9 Predator B, they are the good ones.

I know nothing about Predator B (and Predator C), but I hear that folks are expecting big things from them.
So, would I be "selling my soul" if I started working as a UAV operator???

 

[DaveGriffin]

True,
I love it when the Air Force spun the Indian Su fiasco as a reason for the F-22, just when there started to be questions about the need for a new fighter.

I think the AF got exactly the result they wanted with the match-up against the Su-30s. That was the plan, they needed a beating to justify the need for their new airplane. It was planned that way.

 

[DaveGriffin]

I know nothing about Predator B (and Predator C), but I hear that folks are expecting big things from them.
So, would I be "selling my soul" if I started working as a UAV operator???

How is it "selling your soul" if you get to participate in the development of new technology AND get to wax some bad guys at the same time while driving a UAV?

The buggy whip makers who moved on to auto parts sure didn't sell out. They just changed with the evolution of technology.

 

[SIG600]

How is it "selling your soul" if you get to participate in the development of new technology AND get to wax some bad guys at the same time while driving a UAV?

The buggy whip makers who moved on to auto parts sure didn't sell out. They just changed with the evolution of technology.

The car didn't eliminate the need for a driver...

 

[DaveGriffin]

The car didn't eliminate the need for a driver...

Neither does a UAV.....yet.

It is simply the location of the driver that has changed.

Technology always displaces jobs through increased efficiency. That's the way it's been since the industrial revolution. We will never be able to change that.

 

[JimNtexas]

I know nothing about Predator B (and Predator C), but I hear that folks are expecting big things from them.
So, would I be "selling my soul" if I started working as a UAV operator???

The Texas Air Guard is getting Predators at, of all places, Ellington. I'm sure it is going to be a lot of fun operating UAVs in and out of one of the most busy class 'B' areas in the world.

I'm sure the solution will be just to ban the bugsmashers once and for all.

The TANG is recruiting, if you need a UAV job.

 

[Vingus]

Been there, done that

Boy, we've been there and done that, haven't we.

For those of us around in the early 90's and were a witness to the RIFs (reduction in forces, the boring term before the new modern "force shaping") we know what is looming ahead. Do more with less, the "bathtub", and maybe they will introduce some new sort of TQM to keep us all confused while we struggle to make up the difference.

Problem is that the O-7/O-9s making these decisions now were the O-4s of the early 90s. They were above the ranks that were affected by the bathtub. They didn't have to fly a desk for 3-4 years due to being banked or stacked or worse yet, sit in the nav seat of a tanker cause they fired too many navs (remember that crap!?) And they didn't have to pick up the lion's share of flying that resulted from a lack of manpower cause they probably already had their cushy staff job/ops officer job.

So the pendulum swings, but this time, we are all worse off because of 9/11 and the reserves and guard are too full to absorb the soon to be let go pilots. At least back in 91/92, you could get a guard job, now the only thing hiring out there are the 135/130 units. And it looks like they will be reducing the size of those units as well just adding to the problem.

This may be my longest post on the stupid forum, but I speak from experience here, not just pulling stuff out of my A$$ like I usally do.

I guarantee that the Air Force will be crying for pilots in about 5 years. Mark my words.

 

[JimNtexas]

I think the AF got exactly the result they wanted with the match-up against the Su-30s. That was the plan, they needed a beating to justify the need for their new airplane. It was planned that way.

Exactly correct. They usually use the Israeli's for these propaganda demonstrations, using India was the only new twist to this old song.

 

[stonewall]

I think the AF got exactly the result they wanted with the match-up against the Su-30s. That was the plan, they needed a beating to justify the need for their new airplane. It was planned that way.

If you knew half as much as you think you know about USAF fighter ops, you'd be a freaking genius. You read all about Cope India in AV Week and think you know the whole story. I'm not going to waste my time responding to your uninformed posts anymore.

 

[DaveGriffin]

If you knew half as much as you think you know about USAF fighter ops, you'd be a freaking genius. You read all about Cope India in AV Week and think you know the whole story. I'm not going to waste my time responding to your uninformed posts anymore.

Magnum;

If you go outside your closed circle of zoomie, rah rah, fighter jock, AF cheerleaders, I believe you may find others of the same opinion as mine.

Including the opinion that AF CAS from the fighters ain't always as great as you seem to think it is. Things look much different from ground level than they do from 30,000 ft.

 

[Spyguy]

If you knew half as much as you think you know about USAF fighter ops, you'd be a freaking genius. You read all about Cope India in AV Week and think you know the whole story. I'm not going to waste my time responding to your uninformed posts anymore.

Well, Magnum, I have read ALL the reports, debriefs and videos and my previous statement still stands.

 

[Deuce130]

Magnum;

If you go outside your closed circle of zoomie, rah rah, fighter jock, AF cheerleaders, I believe you may find others of the same opinion as mine.

Including the opinion that AF CAS from the fighters ain't always as great as you seem to think it is. Things look much different from ground level than they do from 30,000 ft.

They're the ones who would know. You don't see fighter jocks reading some magazines and then telling the navy how NSWU-1 should be equipped or how to train the next generation of boat drivers. I've spent some time around operators, does that mean I'm qualified to have an opinon on them? Don't think so. Just 'cause you watched Wings one night doesn't make you an expert on combat aviation. Besides, no is going to argue that AC-130's make great CAS platforms. That's why the AF is building more. With that said, who's going to provide CAS in a high threat environment? Not the gunship. And even the A-10 is a stretch in a high threat environment. The F-16 is your best bet. Anyone can have an opinion, but somehow you seem to think yours is backed up by all this "evidence" that simply isn't true. And anyone who knows anything about military officers knows that noone would get sent to India to take a dive against foreign fighter pilots. What an insult. Stick to what you know.

 

[Deuce130]

Exactly correct. They usually use the Israeli's for these propaganda demonstrations, using India was the only new twist to this old song.

The F-22 was in full blown development long before this fantastical Cope India exercise that everyone seems to think was so important. Take off the aluminum foil hat and watch out for the black helicopters....

 

[AD SUPT Hopeful]

The lesson's learned with A-10s scud-hunting in the first Gulf War perfectly illustrates Duece130's point.

 

[stonewall]

Well, Magnum, I have read ALL the reports, debriefs and videos and my previous statement still stands.

Well, spyguy, You didn't say the same thing as the other dude. You said we spun the "fiasco" as a reason to buy the F-22. That's not the same thing as organizing an intentional "beatdown" by the Indians.

If you've seen everything as you claim and know anything about red v blue taining exercises, then I shouldn't have to tell you why that exercise turned out the way it did. Enough about that.

 

[stonewall]

Magnum;

If you go outside your closed circle of zoomie, rah rah, fighter jock, AF cheerleaders, I believe you may find others of the same opinion as mine.

Including the opinion that AF CAS from the fighters ain't always as great as you seem to think it is. Things look much different from ground level than they do from 30,000 ft.

Look, Potsy, engage your brain before you type. Nobody said CAS has been perfected...if it was we wouldn't spend so much time trying to make it better. I like diversity of opinion...that's how we get better. However, I don't have any use for uninformed opinion. You can blast the AF "Cheerleaders," but the truth is you've never been inside the circle or even remotely close to it. You don't know what our current capes are and you don't know how AF and Navy fighters are currently doing CAS.

But, by all means, keep posting. Maybe in 2020 I'll get on here and post about how much better tactics were back in '06, and how today's "closed circle, zoomie, space-geek UAV and satellite rah rah cheerleaders" need to bring back the F-16!

 

[stonewall]

Further, the F-16 doesn't do CAS from 30,000'. It's more like 15-25. And you'd be surprised what things look like through a Sniper Pod, day or night. Of course, you don't know anything abou that....

 

[JFReservist]

Um... who's gonna give the gas?

The argument over all of those F-series jets is really entertaining and all, but the 135 turns 50 this year (granted, all of the '56 models are adorning sticks somewhere). Nowhere in any of the articles that I've read is a new tanker platform mentioned. Boeing recently announced that it is considering shutting down the 76 line unless the Air Force figures out what they want to do.

 

[JFReservist]

I'm all for a stealth tanker, or whatever the guys smarter than me wanna build... just make sure they don't stealth my hot-cup, oven and other ammenities... man's got eat. Oh, and a microwave and fridge might be nice - those pizzas take a while to cook and I'm getting tired of forgettin my cooler on those pac runs.

 

[Laxman]

Magnum and Deuce130 - Shack

DGriffin - no kidding, things look a lot different from 20k then it does on the ground. When you say bomb the hill, which hill? I see a thousand hills. Or my favorite where I am now...the blue roof building

And to the rest of you who think you know everything about fighter ops and have not lived it in the last few years, you have no idea but you opinions are just that. Opinion.

 

[LAFrequentflyer]

What happened at Cope India that made such an impact on the AF?

-LA