Massive Air Force reduction

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

India and China are among them. Even the N Koreans are flying more than some US fighter pilots each year. People are catching up to us...and FAST. I, for one, don't want our groundpounders in a fair fight and I don't want to be in a fair fight.

It's not a zero sum game...let's do both. I think we should cut discretionary spending, cut entitlements, possibly raise taxes (EGAD! but for defense spending only), and be smarter about how we spend our defense dollars. Fewer golf courses, more guns for all my friends!

Thought the Chinese were too busy making stuff for Wal-mart?

Think China is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[SIG600]

I, for one, don't want our groundpounders in a fair fight and I don't want to be in a fair fight.

It's not a zero sum game...let's do both. I think we should cut discretionary spending, cut entitlements, possibly raise taxes (EGAD! but for defense spending only), and be smarter about how we spend our defense dollars. Fewer golf courses, more guns for all my friends!

Great point... on the first part.

The second... did you vote for Kerry?

 

[RGR275]

If your talking about the 173rd AB drop in northern Iraq..was that really a combat jump? Were there any "D-Day" type drops in either theater? I am asking the question...

You thank the fighter types yet forget those who take you to the DZ!!! Shame on you!!

Herk Loadmaster...

I apologize for not mentioning the AMC guys, I always enjoyed the ride. It beat the hell out of walking .

If I remember correctly 100 Rangers from 3/75, lead by COL Votel, jumbed into Bolanji (100km S. of Kandahar) of 19 OCT 2001. This was also the beginning of Camp Rhino. However, the jump was mainly a distraction so the SF A-Teams could infil from the north.

The 173rd jump into N. Iraq was done after elements of 3/75 seized the airfield. It wasn't a cold DZ, but 3/75 was there first . That is what "they" were talking about within the Regiment. My OIF duties kept me in the south for the majority of my time there.

AD SUPT Hopeful, there were other combat jumps during the early stages of OEF/OIF. However your point is well made, they were smaller teams and not company or battalion size elements. A good example is the SF jump North of Baghdad to seize a few critical MSRs while the Marines came in from the South and East and the Army closed the circle from the South and West. Not that I have any knowledge of the gound operations within Iraq.........

But back to point, MAGNUM hit it dead on. The equipment that the AF is procuring now is for future threat engagements, not the current threat. I want the new gear to dominate now and 30+ years from now. I don't care if it's Stryker, F/A-22, JSF or the new IFV that the Army wants, it MUST be dominant in its intended role.

 

[T2Pilot]

http://aimpoints.hq.af.mil/display.cfm?id=8553

I guess the writing has been on the wall for a while, but I wonder how this is going to effect pilots, both present and future.

My current reserve wing is going away, probably be gone in the next 3 years. Funding has been going down 10% per year for the past few years.

What makes me nervous is the fact that I'm just trying to start my AF career, got a package in for OTS waiting for the next board. I know they're still selecting people, but it seems like numbers are dwindling more and more each board.

I guess I'm missing something. We've still got a war going on right? And the very real possibility of a couple others? What's going on?

Don't give up yet. Everything needs congressional approval. Although there will be aircraft drawdowns (bombers, F-117, U-2, etc) there will be plus ups in addition to the F-22 and F-35. AFSOC has been getting more C-130s and yes more gunships are coming. Additionally a new PC-12 squadron stood up in the past year and will likely expand. CV-22s are (finally) coming this year. On paper the Air Force is overmanned in pilots but much like the overage of navigators several years ago it doesn't amount to much. Many are senior and will be out of the service in the near future or will be promoted out of the cockpit. Many of those affected by retiring aircraft will likely not have the retainability to be retrained in other aircraft so won't be in the cockpit anymore. Many in staff positions are counted as pilots but will never return to flying. In short there will be near term chaos but I wouldn't expect big cutbacks in pilot opportunities because everyone is worried about repeating the mistakes of the past.

 

[AD SUPT Hopeful]

Not to hijack the thread, but T2Pilot, what are your thoughts on the Cannon rumors? Any thoughts on which squadrons are going and when? Everyone from the 16th says the 4th is going and everyone from the 4th say the 16th is going--never ending cycle of rumors!

 

[Deuce130]

Not to hijack the thread, but T2Pilot, what are your thoughts on the Cannon rumors? Any thoughts on which squadrons are going and when? Everyone from the 16th says the 4th is going and everyone from the 4th say the 16th is going--never ending cycle of rumors!

Man, it'll be the biggest dogfight AFSOC has seen in years. I guess it'll come down to which community has the highest ranking guys that own property in Navarre and Destin! Seriously, alot of it will also depend on how they integrate the 919th SOW into the mix. My guess is that the U Boats will go to Canon, along with the MC-130H, CV-22, and Predator. The MC-130E will stay at Duke until it dies, the MC-130P will move to Hurlburt with the 9th and 5th, the AC-130H gunship will stay and will be flown by the 16th and the 711th, the Paves will stay until they go away, and, as for the CLR, who knows. Oh, and the PC-28 will stay. Am I missing anyone???

 

[stonewall]

Great point... on the first part.

The second... did you vote for Kerry?

Them's fightin' words...

Besides, I'm sure I could come up with a tax that only affects people like THK and the Kennedy's. I mean, those idiots support higher income taxes because, well, they don't have incomes. Just old money. And lots of it hidden away in foreign accounts. Don't get me wrong...I'm all for being rich. I just have no time for rich idiots like them trying to prevent everyone else from becoming rich.

Let's add a poll tax for registered Dems only and use it to buy Raptors.

 

[SIG600]

Let's add a poll tax for registered Dems only and use it to buy Superhornets and JSF's.

I think THAT's what you meant :laugh: And thats a FANTASTIC idea!

My roommate showed me an article about the Kennedy family fortune... which is something like 400 million dollars. They've paid like $118,000 in income tax on it. And people in Mass keep re-electing him?

/end thread jack

 

[stonewall]

I think THAT's what you meant :laugh: And thats a FANTASTIC idea!

My roommate showed me an article about the Kennedy family fortune... which is something like 400 million dollars. They've paid like $118,000 in income tax on it. And people in Mass keep re-electing him?

/end thread jack

I found another article with evidence the Kennedy clan has around $500M in Fijian banks. Nice way to avoid taxes. I'll start another thread on Non-av

 

[SIG600]

You'd probably really like this book (if you haven't already read it)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/00...f=pd_bbs_1/103-5710422-9794216?_encoding=UTF8

 

[Kuma]

What about the 6th SOS?

Duece 130 sounds like he believes that the 16th will go to Cannon. I think that he has a couple of proposed 4th units mixed into his posting. Are they going to redistribute all of AFSOC? Are the 4th and the 16th going to remix their assets? If so, I haven't heard any rumors about the 6th SOS. What is their future? Cannon or Hurlburt? How much political power do they hold?

 

[DaveGriffin]

The problem with the AF, dominated by fighter jock Generals, is their neglect of the CAS mission while they over fund the F-22. Adding an attack capability to the F-22, after the fact, to say it can perform an attack mission is BS. They had to do this as the air superiority mission lost its strategic dominance and the attack mission gained in importance. It was originally designed in the late 80’s solely for air-to-air.

The good news in all of this though is that the Global Hawk just passed the 5,000 hour milestone for combat operations. That technology and capability will have a far greater impact on the future of our war fighting capabilities than the F-22 ever will.

 

[stonewall]

The problem with the AF, dominated by fighter jock Generals, is their neglect of the CAS mission while they over fund the F-22. Adding an attack capability to the F-22, after the fact, to say it can perform an attack mission is BS. They had to do this as the air superiority mission lost its strategic dominance and the attack mission gained in importance. It was originally designed in the late 80’s solely for air-to-air.

The good news in all of this though is that the Global Hawk just passed the 5,000 hour milestone for combat operations. That technology and capability will have a far greater impact on the future of our war fighting capabilities than the F-22 ever will.

Nobody is neglecting CAS. As I've stated earlier, I recently left AD as a member of an Operational Test squadron. The overwhelming majority of our work was CAS and Interdiction-related. You are woefully uninformed in this arena.

 

[Huggyu2]

"5000 hours of combat operations": GH's 5000 hours is just that: logging time. The airframe doesn't care whether it is over the Middle East or California. Now the question is "what has it done" WRT reconnaissance? That jury is not convinced that GH is doing all that the flightinfo.com people think it is.
What SIGINT capability does GH have?
What's it payload capability?
How long does it take to get to altitude?
How robust is the reachback?
How far over budget is GH? That's your tax dollars, by the way.
That said, DaveG is probably right in that Mr Rumsfeld and Co. want to go the way of UAV's, and might be willing to accept a loss of capability for a number of years if it means we can develop this technology. GH might get it in a few years, and with a few more billion $$$. But there will be a significant gap.
Plus, with all that money they're sending to GH, I might look that way for a new job!

 

[T2Pilot]

Not to hijack the thread, but T2Pilot, what are your thoughts on the Cannon rumors? Any thoughts on which squadrons are going and when? Everyone from the 16th says the 4th is going and everyone from the 4th say the 16th is going--never ending cycle of rumors!

Someone is going to move there and certainly some gunships will move. I've heard the 4th is more likely but I've also heard rumors of eventually splitting the 4th once the new gunships arrive. Who else is anyone's guess. I've heard the CV-22 and MC-130H are high on the list but there is a strong case for the 319th and 6th SOS to move. It's a fast moving train though so I expect there will be a decision this FY. There is also talk of bringing the 352 and 353rd back to CONUS so that throws a lot of variables into the mix. Expect a lot more rumors in the meantime. Back in 1995 I was at a conference where everyone was told by the CC that the overseas units were coming back and we were going to open a west coast wing and split the forces between there and Hurlburt in the near future. That plan died a quick death when folks outside DoD learned of it.

 

[DaveGriffin]

"5000 hours of combat operations": GH's 5000 hours is just that: logging time. The airframe doesn't care whether it is over the Middle East or California. Now the question is "what has it done" WRT reconnaissance? That jury is not convinced that GH is doing all that the flightinfo.com people think it is.
What SIGINT capability does GH have?
What's it payload capability?
How long does it take to get to altitude?
How robust is the reachback?
How far over budget is GH? That's your tax dollars, by the way.
That said, DaveG is probably right in that Mr Rumsfeld and Co. want to go the way of UAV's, and might be willing to accept a loss of capability for a number of years if it means we can develop this technology. GH might get it in a few years, and with a few more billion $$$. But there will be a significant gap.
Plus, with all that money they're sending to GH, I might look that way for a new job!

Huggy;
If you get a job working with the UAV program, try to work with the MQ-9 Predator B, they are the good ones.

 

[dtfl]

Man, it'll be the biggest dogfight AFSOC has seen in years. I guess it'll come down to which community has the highest ranking guys that own property in Navarre and Destin! Seriously, alot of it will also depend on how they integrate the 919th SOW into the mix. My guess is that the U Boats will go to Canon, along with the MC-130H, CV-22, and Predator. The MC-130E will stay at Duke until it dies, the MC-130P will move to Hurlburt with the 9th and 5th, the AC-130H gunship will stay and will be flown by the 16th and the 711th, the Paves will stay until they go away, and, as for the CLR, who knows. Oh, and the PC-28 will stay. Am I missing anyone???

Close. Have you seen the COA briefing? Bunny gave it to me over a month ago. Rumor is the 5th will cease to exist and the 19th will take that NAME due to lineage. The 919th will become flights of associate "flights".
The Cannon deal - my $.02 - an overreaction to the redesignation of the ERCF that will be occurring once the new users move into town. The SOW has a team submitting requirements for new ranges...so who knows what will happen. The Commando Vision 2000 that T2 Pilot refers to did die...but I bet the AFSOC folks would rather have that than the chance to live in Clovis. Yee haw.

 

[dtfl]

Duece 130 sounds like he believes that the 16th will go to Cannon. I think that he has a couple of proposed 4th units mixed into his posting. Are they going to redistribute all of AFSOC? Are the 4th and the 16th going to remix their assets? If so, I haven't heard any rumors about the 6th SOS. What is their future? Cannon or Hurlburt? How much political power do they hold?

Their range usage is so little that I dont think there is a reason to send them. AFSOC, send the CV22 please...I dont want it dropping out of the sky onto my car while driving down Hwy 98.

 

[Spyguy]

Huggy;
If you get a job working with the UAV program, try to work with the MQ-9 Predator B, they are the good ones.

True,
I ran into a bunch of Global Hawk guys in Lajes a year or so ago. It seems that we have lost several (not going to disclose how many) already in gulf. Let's just say it isn't a small percentage of the fleet. The Hawk is a POS. Stuff it is suppose to do and be capable of, just doesn't seem to work. The MQ-9 works quite well. At least we still have VQ, RJ's, RC-12's and the other unmentionables out there still flying manned missions and doing a fairly good job.
I still think the Air Force and Navy are still wasting money on programs that aren't as important as others. The F-22, DDX, San Antonio class, JSF, Virginia class, and on and on and on. I love it when the Air Force spun the Indian Su fiasco as a reason for the F-22, just when there started to be questions about the need for a new fighter.

 

[Huggyu2]

Huggy;
If you get a job working with the UAV program, try to work with the MQ-9 Predator B, they are the good ones.

I know nothing about Predator B (and Predator C), but I hear that folks are expecting big things from them.
So, would I be "selling my soul" if I started working as a UAV operator???