Major job w/o PIC time?

[FlyingToIST]

Would any major be interested in a pilot with 3/4000 hrs of time in type with only F/O time? I am considering a job in Turkey with a 737 or A320 operator but the upgrades here are brutal (7-10 years). I find useless of working in there for 3/4 years with no shot at operators like Southwest, JetBlue, Sprit or whoever is hiring at the time if lack of 1000 PIC hrs will be an issue.

Thanks...

 

[FurloughedAgain]

In the mid 1990s it was very rare for a company to require the 1000 hrs pic turbine.

In fact, only FedEx and Southwest had such a requirement.

In the late 1990s many, MANY first-officers were hired by the majors with little or no PIC turbine. When they were furloughed in 2001 many of these folks found themselves in a world of hurt -- the rules had changed mid-game!!!

For example...

US Airways furloughees, many of whom had flown the 737 since the late 1980s and who had thousands upon thousands of hours in the aircraft, and who were type-rated in the aircraft, suddenly found themselves unqualified to seek employment elsewhere.

To answer your question, I would think that the PIC turbine is extremely important now if you wish to remain in the airline industry.

But let's all pray that they don't change the rules in the middle of the game yet again...and add yet another qualification that only a select few have.

 

[pilotyip]

No they do not care about SIC time right now, anyone can be a SIC, you do not prove your skills until you are a PIC. There are too many highly qualified pilots looking for jobs. The companies can be very selective right now, unlike the late 90's. There are places in the on-demand and scheduled cargo business where you could get a PIC slot and build up that magic 1000 hrs TJ PIC and become competitive.

 

[Dutch]

Don't have to prove your skills as an SIC? Wow, maybe next time I should just sit on my ass and let the toolbox in the left seat attempt to "catch" the glideslope from 4000' high and less than 3 miles from the marker at 70 kts over approach speed. I'm sure he'll be fine.

 

[Dutch]

How about this one. The almighty PIC who ignored 3 "hold short" statements by me and was flustered when I took the brakes away from him to stop a runway incursion with a FAA POI (not ours) in the jumpseat. Yeah, they should just get rid of all the FO seats in the cockpit. Maybe then the EMB wouldn't be weight restricted all the time.

 

[Fins Up]

Wow. It only took three replies for someone to get offended. That's not bad.

Like it or not 0 PIC time means 0 chance at a major. Even guys who make the mins are fighting for the job.

Overseas is one option or get a small-time job as a freight dog or something else for a couple years and get your 1000 PIC. For a lot of companies, they want the 1000 PIC time to be turbine and sometimes multi.

Hope I'm not bursting any bubbles but that's the way it is right now. Good luck.

Don't have to prove your skills as an SIC? Wow, maybe next time I should just sit on my ass and let the toolbox in the left seat attempt to "catch" the glideslope from 4000' high and less than 3 miles from the marker at 70 kts over approach speed. I'm sure he'll be fine.

 

[ATRCA]

How about this one. The almighty PIC who ignored 3 "hold short" statements by me and was flustered when I took the brakes away from him to stop a runway incursion with a FAA POI (not ours) in the jumpseat. Yeah, they should just get rid of all the FO seats in the cockpit. Maybe then the EMB wouldn't be weight restricted all the time.

Holy $hit, hope I never have to fly with you. Look, I understand your frustration. In light of the fact I think your at Eagle, I really symathize with your position and your animosity toward those in the left seat.

 

[Dutch]

OK, maybe I over-reacted. I re-read my post and I sound really bitter. Maybe the 97+ hours this month has gotten under my skin. Let me clarify something. I don't have any animosity towards the men and women I fly with (AE, AA, TWA, etc.). I do hate that some treat the left seat as a throne and don't seem to have any clue what CRM is.

I agree, the number of pilots with extensive PIC time on the market dictates that companies are going to hire the "known quantity" with prior PIC experience. The fact that companies can be more selective does not, however, diminish the value of SIC experience. And since we are generalizing...the worst guys I've come in contact with from a CRM standpoint were fast upgrades (i.e. less than a couple years in the right seat).

Oh yeah. This was the second time this type of thing happened to me. Thankfully the first time the CA responded to input. Both occurred at CLE with the non-standard hold-short line orientation between the runways.

I really took this off on a tangent. I'll stop hijacking this thread. To address the original question, get the PIC time if possible.

 

[clickclickboom]

I have been a PIC for a little over 6 yrs now

OK, maybe I over-reacted. I re-read my post and I sound really bitter. Maybe the 97+ hours this month has gotten under my skin. Let me clarify something. I don't have any animosity towards the men and women I fly with (AE, AA, TWA, etc.). I do hate that some treat the left seat as a throne and don't seem to have any clue what CRM is.

I agree, the number of pilots with extensive PIC time on the market dictates that companies are going to hire the "known quantity" with prior PIC experience. The fact that companies can be more selective does not, however, diminish the value of SIC experience. And since we are generalizing...the worst guys I've come in contact with from a CRM standpoint were fast upgrades (i.e. less than a couple years in the right seat).

Oh yeah. This was the second time this type of thing happened to me. Thankfully the first time the CA responded to input. Both occurred at CLE with the non-standard hold-short line orientation between the runways.

I really took this off on a tangent. I'll stop hijacking this thread. To address the original question, get the PIC time if possible.

And I will be thefirst to say that you should not tolerate that. First I wouldnt ever treat an FO that way and Second you need to file a complaint with standards and safety. Times are tough for the airlines right now and they cannot afford to have what you are describing in the left seat.. Plus the airlines all know that just like Rambo we are all expendable and easily replaced for half the pay

 

[AlbieF15]

...you need to do whatever it takes to get the PIC...

It is sad, but I have worked with some guys who were young boy-wonders back in the late 80's and got hired by Piedmont or USAir without 1000 PIC. There are some similar stories at other majors..

The BAD news is if you are ever furloughed, you aren't very competitive without the PIC. I know of one US Air guy who stayed right seat for Q of life for 15 years. After he was F-lo'd, he is now out of aviation in another field, because he simply cannot compete--even with the guy who was flying caravans or 135 charter. 1000 PIC turbine is huge. 1000 PIC multi-turbine is even better. (FYI...FedEx won't hire a bunch of Navy guys who have only PIC turbine SE time in the T-34 and don't have 1000 multi-turbine). I'm not saying its good/bad/right/wrong....but if you want to move up in this business you need to suck it up and get that PIC...then you can go camp in the right seat of bigger/better equipment.

And like all generalizations...I say "usually..."...there are always exceptions.

Good luck in any case!

 

[FracCapt]

Don't have to prove your skills as an SIC? Wow, maybe next time I should just sit on my ass and let the toolbox in the left seat attempt to "catch" the glideslope from 4000' high and less than 3 miles from the marker at 70 kts over approach speed. I'm sure he'll be fine.

Has anybody ever told you that you may have anger issues? Go drink a few beers, forget about work, and spend some time with the wife/girlfriend...

 

[Dutch]

Has anybody ever told you that you may have anger issues? Go drink a few beers, forget about work, and spend some time with the wife/girlfriend...

Anger problem? Nah, usually I just find a small animal to kick but I got to the computer first and you guys got the brunt of it.


Disclaimer: The user does not endorse the abuse of small animals. No animals were harmed in the creation of this post. For more information on animal rights visit the following site www.animalrights.org

 

[BRA]

No they do not care about SIC time right now, anyone can be a SIC, you do not prove your skills until you are a PIC. There are too many highly qualified pilots looking for jobs. The companies can be very selective right now, unlike the late 90's. There are places in the on-demand and scheduled cargo business where you could get a PIC slot and build up that magic 1000 hrs TJ PIC and become competitive.

I don't think i ever see a post where pilotyip mentions turboprop PIC as being worth anything, but i will say it is right up there with turbojet PIC.

 

[FurloughedTwice]

Just a quick note about the PIC requirement. I was hired at a major without PIC turbine and when I was furloughed I was nervous about being competitive but so far it hasn't effected my career at all.

How many F/O's have you known that actually busted out of Captain school? I can probably think of 5 in the past 10 years. When they hire an F/O they are hiring Captain qualified individuals who will most likely make great Captains. I'm not saying that PIC isn't important because it is, but "most" airlines factor in your previous experience. There is no question that the odds are in your favor if you have PIC time but it doesn't mean you won't get hired if you don't.

If you have an opportunity to fly bigger equipment or sit around on a 30 passenger airplane and wait for the PIC time then I would choose the bigger equipment. I have flown at 4 different majors with very little PIC time.

Good Luck!

 

[F/O]

The important thing when you are an F/O is to think like a captain so that you are ready when the time comes. Some are great at this, others aren't. Unfortunately, the only way for a prospective employer to know that you can think like a captain is to actually see you have been a captain. Once again, that doesn't mean that person X with zero PIC wouldn't be great at a major.

It's just one of those things, and with current supply and demand it seems like much of the industry has established the 1000 PIC turbine benchmark to be considered "qualified."

 

[CKJET]

Just a quick note about the PIC requirement. I was hired at a major without PIC turbine and when I was furloughed I was nervous about being competitive but so far it hasn't effected my career at all.

How many F/O's have you known that actually busted out of Captain school? I can probably think of 5 in the past 10 years. When they hire an F/O they are hiring Captain qualified individuals who will most likely make great Captains. I'm not saying that PIC isn't important because it is, but "most" airlines factor in your previous experience. There is no question that the odds are in your favor if you have PIC time but it doesn't mean you won't get hired if you don't.

If you have an opportunity to fly bigger equipment or sit around on a 30 passenger airplane and wait for the PIC time then I would choose the bigger equipment. I have flown at 4 different majors with very little PIC time.

Good Luck!

I agree, I had very little PIC time and was able to get on with Tower Air back in the 90's as a 747 F/O. The experince was pricless and I was able to upgrade to Capt. before they went under. If you have the oppertunity to fly bigger equipment do it. However with the current state of our industry you are probally screwed no matter what you do. Good Luck

 

[FN FAL]

How about this one. The almighty PIC who ignored 3 "hold short" statements by me and was flustered when I took the brakes away from him to stop a runway incursion with a FAA POI (not ours) in the jumpseat. Yeah, they should just get rid of all the FO seats in the cockpit. Maybe then the EMB wouldn't be weight restricted all the time.

Why would they let that crappy SIC upgrade to PIC, that's what I want to know?

And If you were trained and evaluated by the same corporate culture that allowed that alleged turd become captain, who the hell are you?

 

[Andy]

Would any major be interested in a pilot with 3/4000 hrs of time in type with only F/O time? I am considering a job in Turkey with a 737 or A320 operator but the upgrades here are brutal (7-10 years). I find useless of working in there for 3/4 years with no shot at operators like Southwest, JetBlue, Sprit or whoever is hiring at the time if lack of 1000 PIC hrs will be an issue.

Thanks...

I got hired by UAL in early 2000 w/a lot of PIC. However, the bar was getting very low as far as PIC and total time prior to everyone stopping hiring. There were a lot of low time pilots in my class. What's a rule today (need lotsa PIC) could easily be a nicety tomorrow. It's all about supply & demand. Speaking of which, if mandatory retirement age jumps to 65 in the US, you can bet that hiring will slow significantly in the US for quite some time.
Do what makes you happy; life's short. If taking a job overseas is something that you want to do, go for it. If you're flying in Turkey, you'll have other challenges that could be valuable in an interview.
I assume that you're a low time pilot. If that's the case, getting 737/A320 experience will be very valuable in an interview. Besides, if you timed it right, you may be able to do a short stint with a second tier airline that has rapid turnover to get your PIC. Ever consider Atlas? I don't know what kind of requirements they have today, but back in 2000, all that was required was a pulse and a tolerance for being home only ~4 days a month. Upgrade time there was less than 2 yrs.
Good luck in your career.

 

[FlyingToIST]

I got hired by UAL in early 2000 w/a lot of PIC. However, the bar was getting very low as far as PIC and total time prior to everyone stopping hiring. There were a lot of low time pilots in my class. What's a rule today (need lotsa PIC) could easily be a nicety tomorrow.
Do what makes you happy; life's short. If taking a job overseas is something that you want to do, go for it. If you're flying in Turkey, you'll have other challenges that could be valuable in an interview.

The flying is a bit different than US but it has challanges that can make the experience a valuable one. Lack of English skills it 's something that was admited by the chief pilots of the airline. He basically said a person with two foreign languages can add to the airline.

I assume that you're a low time pilot. If that's the case, getting 737/A320 experience will be very valuable in an interview. Besides, if you timed it right, you may be able to do a short stint with a second tier airline that has rapid turnover to get your PIC.
Good luck in your career.

You are correct in your assumption. I am just shy of 1200 hrs. But close enough to a 135 job that I could consider that.. On the other hand, having dual citizenship opens the door for a company paid 737 or 320 type that I can bring to a US airline that will be hiring in 3-4 years time.

We'll see , it's a tough decision to make.. At least I have a supporting wife.. for now.

 

[pilotyip]

Did not intent any overlook in my orgininal post, but Turbo prop PIC is good time, maybe not as good as TJ PIC and some airlines only have requirement of 1000 hr Turbine PIC. If you flew heavy turbo props like P-3's, L-188's, C-130's I believe they look at the turbo prop time the same as TJ PIC.