Major Airlines NOT Using PBS?

[Ottersphere]

Which Ones?

 

[AAflyer]

American.

Management wants it, and we as pilots have to no desire to give it. I have seen the ways other airlines have bastardized it, I can only imagine what AMR would do to it.

AA

 

[Ottersphere]

Thanks.

 

[boeingdriver213]

Southwest doesn't have it, doesn't want it...

 

[crj567]

Southwest doesn't have it, doesn't want it...

Very wise to stay far away from that junk.

 

[GogglesPisano]

The PBS at DAL is my first exposure to it and I think it's light-years ahead of bidding lines the old-fashioned way (at 2 previous airlines.) I couldn't imagine going through 300+ lines to try to find one that's "just right," and then entering the others in preferential order.

It all depends on the how much control the union has over its implementation. The Scheduling Comm here is intimately involved in the process (from implementation to monthly awards.)

 

[wscrj]

No at AS.

 

[Cheeta]

PBS at the majors speaks for it self...80%+ have switched to it and none have ever switched back. PBS is far superior to line bidding with average contract language.

 

[AAflyer]

PBS at the majors speaks for it self...80%+ have switched to it and none have ever switched back. PBS is far superior to line bidding with average contract language.

Ha Ha, they switched because it was a concession.... Of course they haven't switched back, they haven't switched their old pay rates either.

AA:laugh:

 

[DonVerita]

Airtran Airways doesn't use it. Why? Because we don't trust Management one bit.

We use FLICA. Some guys take it a step further and use BidPro to sort the lines the way they want them and then BidPro and FLICA interface to have a seemless automated upload of the sorted lines.

 

[BID]

don't do it! stay away from PBS!!!! Ask yourself why management wants it so bad.

 

[epps]

It is the greatest thing in the world for management. A little short on pilots this month? No problem, they will just raise the target window 2 hours. It is like Junior Manning the entire company.

 

[LearLove]

no PBS at US Air

 

[Ottersphere]

Thanks for the responses peeps, greatly appreciated! Also some good points.

 

[Headfake14]

Jetblue has PBS. My first exposure to it. Took a while to get the hang of it. Sometimes your the windsheild..sometimes your the bug. Yes, it definately has areas for improvement...and our line guys have full access to it as well...not just a mgmt's toy.

I prefer PBS over the old school way of pre built lines...

 

[slaquer5]

Ha Ha, they switched because it was a concession.... Of course they haven't switched back, they haven't switched their old pay rates either.

AA:laugh:

That could not have been said better

SWA management would love to have BPS

 

[ACL65PILOT]

PBS is ultra efficient.
No month to month, training, or vacation conflicts.
It will also schedule around any other event like FMLA, Mil Leave, Office Days, ALPA work, etc.

It will at a min change you staffing requirements by 10%. (given were we all are now with staffing)

That said, it also works well for almost all the pilots on a list. If the trips are built well, it does a decent job of assigning your Line of Time (LOT)

I agree that the ALV (Average Line Value) target can be moved up or down up to 10 hrs to deal with over staffing or understaffing issues. That is the same as original line awards. The difference with PBS is it tries to work around your parameters.

With some of the functions that PBS does, it is possible for a junior guy to get most of the requests they want in a non-holiday month. It will pick a trip off a senior pilot and assign it to the junior pilot unless the senior pilot has specifically asked for the trip.

If you do not have it, it will be a huge savings to the company if you allow it. Get a lot in return for it because it saves a boat load of money.

 

[JohnQ]

AA and SWA guys are right to be "suspicious" but wrong to just utterly dismiss PBS. It would be like "no, I don't want a sharper kitchen knife because then I might cut myself more easily." (?....)

PBS might be a very good tool that is light-years ahead of line-of-time style bidding...or it might be the equivalent of a "sodomizer" that makes everyone's life miserable.

It is all in how much of an active role that the union takes in both selecting the PBS product as well as overseeing its implementation.

At DAL we were heavily involved from the outset, and remain heavily involved now. No PBS bid runs are released until approved by the (union) PBS Committee. I don't know of one pilot out of 50 at DAL that would rather go back to our LOT system.

That said, I know that other airlines have used PBS to ramrod through a miserable world to their pilots, and I have no doubt that DAL would do the same if they could...but they can't.

And last, to all the PBS-bashers who wax eloquent about how wonderful LOT bidding is, I have two questions.

1. Is it really better sorting through hundreds of lines, just to find a handful that contain everything you want (which you probably won't be senior enough to get)? Then you have to go through infinite gyrations after the original bid awards, dropping, picking up, and swapping trips all over the place, just so you can get the trips and days off that PBS would have had a much better chance of getting you the first time around?

2. Why do you cling so firmly to lines of time...when it is MANAGEMENT that creates those lines! Why is the ability of a pilot to at least direct the creation of his own schedule as he sees fit criticized, while the ability of supposedly despised management to create your lines--as THEY see fit--celebrated? I don't get it.

I will bet that if SWA and AA pilots reluctantly agreed to PBS (not that that is going to happen, nor do I really care) and had a rigorous oversight process like we have at DAL, within a year or two, most guys would not want to go back. That said, it is a staffing concession, and I will admit, if I were an AA pilot, with tons of guys on the street, I wouldn't want to give mgmt any more efficiencies either.

 

[AAflyer]

John Q,

Very well said, but to recap the fear we have as pilot at AA. PBS will be bastardized by AMR management. I have spoken with many old TWA pilots and PBS worked great for them, the pilots also controlled it. AMR would never allow APA to control the scheduling metrics in PBS.

AA

 

[JohnQ]

John Q,

Very well said, but to recap the fear we have as pilot at AA. PBS will be bastardized by AMR management. I have spoken with many old TWA pilots and PBS worked great for them, the pilots also controlled it. AMR would never allow APA to control the scheduling metrics in PBS.

AA

In that case, I respectfully defer to your knowledge of your own management's behavior!

 

[C-150ETOPS]

In that case, I respectfully defer to your knowledge of your own management's behavior!

Giving AA management PBS without total control of APA is like giving them 100,000 custom Trojan ("Prickly Pear Edition, Ribbed and Spiked for Managments Pleasure") condoms to use as they see fit.

 

[N1atEcon]

I couldn't imagine going through 300+ lines to try to find one that's "just right," and then entering the others in preferential order.

Ahh, ever hear of a bid sort program? You want only 3 day trips, no ground time, 18 hrs in FLL, BAM, LOCK IT IN!

 

[JohnQ]

Ahh, ever hear of a bid sort program? You want only 3 day trips, no ground time, 18 hrs in FLL, BAM, LOCK IT IN!

Yes, I used EasyBid all the time when DAL had LOT bidding, and I did very well with both it and our LOT system.

Still at DAL I like PBS better--that doesn't mean that it works elsewhere, or that it is always better all the time.

Thread closed for me!

 

[waveflyer]

How about the effect on vacation? Those happy w/ PBS- does your program consider vacation before or after you bid?

 

[slaquer5]

AA and SWA guys are right to be "suspicious" but wrong to just utterly dismiss PBS. It would be like "no, I don't want a sharper kitchen knife because then I might cut myself more easily." (?....)



1. Is it really better sorting through hundreds of lines, just to find a handful that contain everything you want (which you probably won't be senior enough to get)? Then you have to go through infinite gyrations after the original bid awards, dropping, picking up, and swapping trips all over the place, just so you can get the trips and days off that PBS would have had a much better chance of getting you the first time around?



.

J Q

I can get 21 days off for one weeks vacation and have it pay at least 40 hrs and I have got as high as 55 hrs. Can you do that with PBS?

Plain and simple, PBS equals 10% less pilot work force.


PS I did not see ACL post above please refer to it as he sums up PBS. JMO

 

[ACL65PILOT]

How PBS sees your vacation depends on the company. For us it is pay and credit. It is credited at 21 hrs a week towards ALV plus or minus 7.5 for the LCW. (Line Completion Window)

 

[waveflyer]

Sure- and ours has a set value as well- but our lines are bid independently of vacations- we don't have trips that end and begin around our vacations. That's huge

 

[aa73]

John Q,

Very well said, but to recap the fear we have as pilot at AA. PBS will be bastardized by AMR management. I have spoken with many old TWA pilots and PBS worked great for them, the pilots also controlled it. AMR would never allow APA to control the scheduling metrics in PBS.

AA

Spot on... and not to mention the fact that, ANY acceptance of PBS is an automatic 5-10% reduction in the pilot corps... and we still have, what, 1800 pilots out on furlough?

Naga.. Naga... Nagonnahappen.

 

[Cheeta]

J Q

I can get 21 days off for one weeks vacation and have it pay at least 40 hrs and I have got as high as 55 hrs. Can you do that with PBS?

Plain and simple, PBS equals 10% less pilot work force.


PS I did not see ACL post above please refer to it as he sums up PBS. JMO

Yes, we can do that at JetBlue with VAC and PBS...

Plus we have a staffing level of 6.45 Crews per aircraft.

This 10% number get thrown around alot and its just not accurate....Most airline see 2%-3% decrease in crews required in the transition from Line Bidding to PBS.

 

[NuGuy]

PBS can work VERY well for the pilots, properly implemented.

But it will also give the company a %10-15 boost in their "effective" staffing. Make the bastards pay for every little bit of it.

Nu