Major Airlines NOT Using PBS?

[C-150ETOPS]

In that case, I respectfully defer to your knowledge of your own management's behavior!

Giving AA management PBS without total control of APA is like giving them 100,000 custom Trojan ("Prickly Pear Edition, Ribbed and Spiked for Managments Pleasure") condoms to use as they see fit.

 

[N1atEcon]

I couldn't imagine going through 300+ lines to try to find one that's "just right," and then entering the others in preferential order.

Ahh, ever hear of a bid sort program? You want only 3 day trips, no ground time, 18 hrs in FLL, BAM, LOCK IT IN!

 

[JohnQ]

Ahh, ever hear of a bid sort program? You want only 3 day trips, no ground time, 18 hrs in FLL, BAM, LOCK IT IN!

Yes, I used EasyBid all the time when DAL had LOT bidding, and I did very well with both it and our LOT system.

Still at DAL I like PBS better--that doesn't mean that it works elsewhere, or that it is always better all the time.

Thread closed for me!

 

[waveflyer]

How about the effect on vacation? Those happy w/ PBS- does your program consider vacation before or after you bid?

 

[slaquer5]

AA and SWA guys are right to be "suspicious" but wrong to just utterly dismiss PBS. It would be like "no, I don't want a sharper kitchen knife because then I might cut myself more easily." (?....)



1. Is it really better sorting through hundreds of lines, just to find a handful that contain everything you want (which you probably won't be senior enough to get)? Then you have to go through infinite gyrations after the original bid awards, dropping, picking up, and swapping trips all over the place, just so you can get the trips and days off that PBS would have had a much better chance of getting you the first time around?



.

J Q

I can get 21 days off for one weeks vacation and have it pay at least 40 hrs and I have got as high as 55 hrs. Can you do that with PBS?

Plain and simple, PBS equals 10% less pilot work force.


PS I did not see ACL post above please refer to it as he sums up PBS. JMO

 

[ACL65PILOT]

How PBS sees your vacation depends on the company. For us it is pay and credit. It is credited at 21 hrs a week towards ALV plus or minus 7.5 for the LCW. (Line Completion Window)

 

[waveflyer]

Sure- and ours has a set value as well- but our lines are bid independently of vacations- we don't have trips that end and begin around our vacations. That's huge

 

[aa73]

John Q,

Very well said, but to recap the fear we have as pilot at AA. PBS will be bastardized by AMR management. I have spoken with many old TWA pilots and PBS worked great for them, the pilots also controlled it. AMR would never allow APA to control the scheduling metrics in PBS.

AA

Spot on... and not to mention the fact that, ANY acceptance of PBS is an automatic 5-10% reduction in the pilot corps... and we still have, what, 1800 pilots out on furlough?

Naga.. Naga... Nagonnahappen.

 

[Cheeta]

J Q

I can get 21 days off for one weeks vacation and have it pay at least 40 hrs and I have got as high as 55 hrs. Can you do that with PBS?

Plain and simple, PBS equals 10% less pilot work force.


PS I did not see ACL post above please refer to it as he sums up PBS. JMO

Yes, we can do that at JetBlue with VAC and PBS...

Plus we have a staffing level of 6.45 Crews per aircraft.

This 10% number get thrown around alot and its just not accurate....Most airline see 2%-3% decrease in crews required in the transition from Line Bidding to PBS.

 

[NuGuy]

PBS can work VERY well for the pilots, properly implemented.

But it will also give the company a %10-15 boost in their "effective" staffing. Make the bastards pay for every little bit of it.

Nu

 

[slaquer5]

Yes, we can do that at JetBlue with VAC and PBS...

Plus we have a staffing level of 6.45 Crews per aircraft.

This 10% number get thrown around alot and its just not accurate....Most airline see 2%-3% decrease in crews required in the transition from Line Bidding to PBS.

OK let me clarify, 1 weeks vacation I work 3 to 4 days for the month 2 weeks vacation in one month I don't work at all and get paid for the full month. Can you do that with PBS? NO.

The 10% number is very accurate. Gary Kelly would be very proud of you

 

[dicko]

PBS is ultra efficient.
No month to month, training, or vacation conflicts.
It will also schedule around any other event like FMLA, Mil Leave, Office Days, ALPA work, etc.

It will at a min change you staffing requirements by 10%. (given were we all are now with staffing)

That said, it also works well for almost all the pilots on a list. If the trips are built well, it does a decent job of assigning your Line of Time (LOT)

I agree that the ALV (Average Line Value) target can be moved up or down up to 10 hrs to deal with over staffing or understaffing issues. That is the same as original line awards. The difference with PBS is it tries to work around your parameters.

With some of the functions that PBS does, it is possible for a junior guy to get most of the requests they want in a non-holiday month. It will pick a trip off a senior pilot and assign it to the junior pilot unless the senior pilot has specifically asked for the trip.

If you do not have it, it will be a huge savings to the company if you allow it. Get a lot in return for it because it saves a boat load of money.

Exactly:

If you are management you want PBS.

If you are a management b!tch you want PBS, and you've got it.

If you are working under a bankruptcy contract you've got PBS.

If you think management likes you. You like PBS.

 

[denny]

When I first flew a plane with autothrottles I hated it. Autobrakes? I refused to touch them. VNAV and LNAV? Just saving the company money. TCAS? I'll never trust it. Color radar? YHGTBSM. CAT II and III? Why bother; a miss to an alternate is more profitable for me. ACARS? Management intrusion into the cockpit. Computerized W & B? The world has come to an end. Give me a pencil and paper. Computerized bidding? In the 21st century at airlines being run as if it is still 1954? It will never happen. Pilots pulling rolling suitcases? OK. NOW the world has come to an end!

 

[AA717driver]

AA has 2000 pilots on furlough. With PBS/demand staffing, they could send another 1000 to the beach.

Arpey paces the halls of his mansion every night cursing Don Carty for not filing Ch.11.

Former TWA here. Lived with PBS for 3 or 4 years. It's "ok" and there was ZERO company involvement in the bidding AND it was run by highly motivated union volunteers who made it work as well as it could at the time.

If AMR gets PBS, I'm quitting. It would suck THAT bad.

As for no one getting rid of PBS, I thought NWA opted out of it shortly after it began there. (They were smart enough to have an opt out clause.)

TC

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree, but ponder this:

You company is asking for what could be a major concession in the next CH11. Doing it outside of 1113C where you can actually get some other perks for it might serve you better than waiting until the gun is not just pointed at your head, but loaded.

I think that if you skirt by Section six without pbs the next refilling round it will be forced down your throats with nothing gained. Get scope protections that are iron clad. Get that 70 seat flying on mainline, get a iron clad guarantee that not one more pilot will be furloughed and if they do PBS is gone. Stuff like that will add to your career.

The ugly reality is that the company will get PBS in the next five years. What you get for allowing it is the unknown.

I agree if implemented incorrectly it sucks. Just look past the here and now before you burn the idea to ashes.

 

[nwaf16dude]

NWA had PBS only for line holders for a long time. When they finally implemented PBS for reserves the results were so bad that we told the company we wanted to go back to paper bidding for reserves. The company said no. Before we could really challenge the whole thing it was sort of overcome by events with the merger.

PBS will make you more efficient, and probably cost 6-9% of the pilot force. Beyond that, it's really up to what you negotiate. Work rules are the key. PBS is just a tool to efficiently enforce or implement your work rules. If you have great work rules, PBS will give great results. If your work rules suck, your PBS results will suck.

 

[get2flyin]

no PBS at US Air

Correction: no PBS at US Air EAST.

The West has it and the former ALPA guy (who understands its intricacies better then anyone in the company) monitors it. The East doesn't understand it and they don't want to understand it. So USAPA has graciously allowed our guru to continue working as the liaison. IF someone very intelligent who understands it fully (both as something useful and something detrimental) is able to be involved in its use, it is FANTASTIC. If your group was abused with it, then you had the wrong guys monitoring its use.

The reality is it will probably go away because the East is afraid of it. Much like completing checklists using flows and actually knowing what most of the functions of an Airbus are for(*), they will eventually be dragged out of the stone age. In the mean time, I'm betting we'll all be back to paper bidding soon enough. But hey, that's just one rookie's opinion.


*Apologies to B.S of Airbusdriver.net. I'd say this guy knows the Airbus inside and out.

 

[denny]

The reality is it will probably go away because the East is afraid of it. Much like completing checklists using flows and actually knowing what most of the functions of an Airbus are for(*), they will eventually be dragged out of the stone age. In the mean time, I'm betting we'll all be back to paper bidding soon enough. But hey, that's just one rookie's opinion.


*Apologies to B.S of Airbusdriver.net. I'd say this guy knows the Airbus inside and out.[/QUOTE]

As a US Airways guy a couple things here. PBS is not going to go away. It just isn't. The pilots like it too much. Once the learning curve is over you can rape the company with your PBS bid.

Second, the Airbusdriver.net and whoever runs it are clueless. It is just a regurgitation of read file memos. After having gone through all the training and using this guy's site I can honestly say it is 6 -12 months dated, worthless, and about as educational as "See Spot Run." All he does is copy the company info and then put it up on his site. As for the tips on flying the plane and tips on getting through sim...please, spare us. Only an idiot would need coaching to get through the US Airways training program.

 

[get2flyin]

The reality is it will probably go away because the East is afraid of it. Much like completing checklists using flows and actually knowing what most of the functions of an Airbus are for(*), they will eventually be dragged out of the stone age. In the mean time, I'm betting we'll all be back to paper bidding soon enough. But hey, that's just one rookie's opinion.


*Apologies to B.S of Airbusdriver.net. I'd say this guy knows the Airbus inside and out.

As a US Airways guy a couple things here. PBS is not going to go away. It just isn't. The pilots like it too much. Once the learning curve is over you can rape the company with your PBS bid.

Second, the Airbusdriver.net and whoever runs it are clueless. It is just a regurgitation of read file memos. After having gone through all the training and using this guy's site I can honestly say it is 6 -12 months dated, worthless, and about as educational as "See Spot Run." All he does is copy the company info and then put it up on his site. As for the tips on flying the plane and tips on getting through sim...please, spare us. Only an idiot would need coaching to get through the US Airways training program.

Denny, what Airways guys like it too much? I wasn't aware you are even using it. Also, as far as the the Airbusdriver.net guy goes, he has a lot of good information. When I started at AWA, I came across the site and found the general Airbus information helpful, although I did find some of it watered down. Obviously, the study guides for watered down orals didn't help me all that much. At least he seemed to know what things like Flight Path Vector were for...but hey, if your East, he's your guy.

 

[rider850]

Ha Ha, they switched because it was a concession.... Of course they haven't switched back, they haven't switched their old pay rates either.

AA:laugh:

Glad AA never conceded anything,HAHA. That is laughable. What your actually telling us is that AA has conceded everything but,PBS. The job is no better than an LLC. Sad but true.