MAF/pilot shortage

[Timebuilder]

I don't believe those things either, no do I take communion, nor do I pray to anybody's mother, yada, yada. Again, I suppose that puts you in the same bracket as the MAF pilot who ignorantly and incorrectly identified my beliefs (as if it were his business), and then condemned them. Police, Prosecutor, Judge. Sentenced. Thanks.

Good.

You might have noticed that I prefaced these assumptions with the words "if you mean."

If you mean something else, it is for you to articulate that, or risk being misunderstood.

I articulated a common set of beliefs regarding a group that is very large and describes themselves as being "Christian." If you failed to articulate your beleifs to a group that has a definite structure of doctrine based on the Bible (such as MAF), or if you mentioned a group affiliation that by name or doctrine is not Biblically based, then you can expect a conflict.

Not a prosecution, not a judgement, not a sentence. Just a recognition of a doctrine that does not agree with the Bible. You are welcome.

Use caution wherewith ye judge, for with what judgement ye judge, so therefore shall ye be judged. No?

Yes. Also:

2Corinthians 6:14 says "Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?"

So, as believers, were are not to felllowship or partner with unbelievers, which explains the doctrinal requirement of MAF membership or organizations like them. We ARE to reach out to those who have not conformed to God's word. The "judgement" is His, and His alone. We are tasked with discernment.

Malachi 3:18 " Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked, Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.'

It seems without the benifit of such a discussion, the MAF pilot was quick to condemn, much like you. My own beliefs are quite irrelevant. I could be Southern Baptist, Progressive Episcopalian, Roman Catholic, LDS, Seventh Day Adventist, or even Buddhist (which permits one to be a Christian and still practice Buddhism with full compatability). You don't know. Yet without the benifit of that knowledge, so quick to judge, as you seem to feel you have all the answers.

Calling discernement a "judgement" is a defensive position, and not logically sound in the context of God's word. Since God's word is the foundation of this discussion, He is right. I just follow it. A Christian organization could not, using discernement, partner with several of the beliefs that you listed. That's Biblically based, and correct in obedience to His word. To do so would be, to use the popular term, ecumenical rather than Biblical.

So you see, I do know, because the inerrant Word has told me. If you have a better understanding, I invite you to show me where that understanding is based. Other than that, the MAF man may have been rude and behaved ignorantly, but he was not wrong to resist an ecumenical attitude in a Biblically based organization.

So tell me, shrine mercenary, who delivered you the power to interpret Calvary? Or to judge, in direct contravention to all counsel by Paul, and Christ? Further, when considering the ministry or the general interaction between the "Christian" and the "Gentile," was it not Christ who supped with the publicans, walked among the leppers, and who healed the ear of him come to take him to custody and kill him? (It was). For those "christians" who will not associate with others because of their (incorrectly) perceived beliefs...they're not very "christian," are they?

Well, despite your unjustifed judgement (see who is doing the judging here?) of "shrine mercenary" (whatever that means, it cannot be complimentary), believers are commanded to read and understand His Word, in prayerful guidance by God the Holy Spirit. Nothing is in contradiction to Paul or Christ.

Christ supped with publicans, tax collectors and such, because they needed a physician, meaning that He was there to minister to their spiritual needs, not to sit as an equal, or a social or business partner.

So, He was not taking them on, any of them, as disciples until He called them, such as he did with Saul of Tarsis on the road to Emmaus, and they believed in Him. Belief came first, partnering second. In that order.

To not partner, or be "unequally yoked" with unbelievers, is Biblical indeed, and unequivocal in its clarity. Nothing fuzzy at all. ALL of Christ's disciples and followers had repented of their former beliefs and activities before partnering with Christ.

That's the example I think you are missing.

I can't say if the devil is in your heart at all. I CAN tell you that if you reject the teaching of the Bible, you are rejecting the word of God, and God Himself, by extension. Even now, while days grow short, you are still called to kneel, and accept His word as truth.

That's up to you, and you alone.

 

[TurboS7]

MAF's website: www.maf.org-Their doctrinal statement is also available there also.

 

[TurboS7]

www.JAARS.org-website will also get you into requirements.JAARS(Jungle Aviation and Radio Service)is the corporate flying arm of Wycliffe Bible Translators. My daughter is with Wycliffe and my Dad and Mom are retired WBT'r and JAARS flight dispatcher.

 

[Timebuilder]

For Cat driver:

Religion has many facets, the Salvation Army can be judged by their helping the down trodden, the fanatics that flew into the twin towers are the other end of the spectrum.

While you can often judge good and evil by acts, you must be careful.

Some of the greatest evils of our time revolve around the supposed "equal rights" of some special groups, which have resulted in the near destruction of the American family, the driving of God from our schools, and the acceptance of aberrant behavior as normal by a so-called "modern" and "progressive" and "open" society.

Further, even the best acts have nothing to to with salvation. Ask your wife about Ephesians 2:8-9.

8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Just as we know, in American aviation, that only the office of chief counsel can interpret regulations of the FAA, we also know that, according to the Bible, only acceptance of Christ as personal savior brings salvation.

Not being nice. (attitude)

Not doing good things. (works)

Not wishing for the best. ("hoping")

Only belief in Christ is the Way.


MAF info, as to what they believe:

http://www.maf.org/about/doctrine.html

 

[wms]

God expects us to be good stewards, and work with the framework of organizations that serve Him, and follow the rules and requests that they have arrived at in a prayerful manner.

I'm not going to say don't support an organization which helps to provide for the needs of others or helps to spread the Gospel. But I will say that there is no expectation of God for a framework of organizations. There is no Biblical instruction or pattern for formal christian organizations.

There were those who gave from their abundance, such as Aquilla and Pricilla who provided their home as a church; those who worked to provide for their own needs as Paul did making tents so that he would not be indebted to men, Acts 18:3, 2 Thess 3:8; and as he instructed Timothy to do also . There was also an appeal for the needs of believers in 1 Corr 16, 2 Corr 8:1- 9:15 and Phil 1:5. But there is no example of formal fund-raising or the personal soliciting of funds, just the generosity of the believers giving for the needs of others as the Lord would lead and as needs of others were made known. After all, it's all His anyway. He uses it to meet our needs, and provides an excess to distribute what is His to others.

Gallatians 6:6&10 give the priority.
1 Those who teach (preachers and missionaries)
2 Those of the faith in need
3 All who are needy

The Lord looked upon all in need and had compassion on them, and that should be our heart in giving.

 

[mattfish42]

Turbo, thanks for the links. Looks like I've got a few hundred hours to go before I'm eligible.

Anyone else here ever fly for MAF, JAARS, or similar organizations? Got any stories, advice, warnings, or other useful information?

 

[Snoopy58]

Timebuilder -- check your PMs.

 

[Timebuilder]

But I will say that there is no expectation of God for a framework of organizations. There is no Biblical instruction or pattern for formal christian organizations.

No, but there is the example of Christ and His disciples, the very first "Christian Organization." All had become in one accord. They worked together to spread the Gospel. Along the way, many gave them sleeping quarters, food, and a little money for expenses, just like churches today support their missionaries by raising money.

Most Christian organizations look to be a benefit to nonbelievers as a method of outreach. While there is no prohibition against supporting non-Christian organizations (such as my support of the Air Safety Foundation) we need to recognize that previously mentioned warning against being "unequally yoked" together with nonbelievers. Specifically, we are led to seek out Christian fellowship, and welcome others to follow Christ.

 

[EMcx2]

Paying $5200 to fly crappy planes in crappy places

\\Is that pay-for-job or pay-for- training.

 

[Timebuilder]

It is called churches supporting missions, and pilots who are called to do the work being willing to fly the planes.

Not everthing in life is done to place yourself in the next higher tax bracket. Some things are important enough to do them because they need to be done.

 

[surfnole]

****
. I was very disturbed to find out that they are only meeting 40% of their needs for pilots.
*****

I don't think its surprising considering the qualifications they require...Mainly a 40-50K investment in training with no guarantee that you would ever even be hired by MAF. I checked into it a few years back and the requirements were

1) 12 hours of Bible college - OK, I can knock that out while working full time

2) Commercial, preferably CFI. This would not be hard to get from where I stand now, and it can be done while working

3) A&P - From their website today:

***
So no matter what you may have heard, we do require the A&P license.
****

My research indicates that this is a 12-24 month full time program. Little opportunity for work. If I gave up an income for that time and received my A&P, there was no certainty that I would ever be accepted by MAF. I would have little use for an A&P outside this requirement. Essentially, one two two years of my life could be wasted with no income and large cash outflow pursuing this requirement.

I realize the necessity of this requirement, but its difficult to accept paying all those costs with no assurance they will pay off in the end.

I think MAF is a great organization, and I support an MAF pilot. I'd love to go on a 2-3 year mission and try it out, but I'm not sure I'd want to go through that investment without some assurance I would reach the goal. The same reason I gave up pursuing aviation as a career.

 

[TurboS7]

You only get anywhere in aviation with Perserverance.

 

[Timebuilder]

I realize the necessity of this requirement, but its difficult to accept paying all those costs with no assurance they will pay off in the end.

Well, let's see. If by "pay off," you mean that you get to fly for MAF, then there is no guarantee. Certainly, with an A&P and twenty or thirty working years ahead of you, you can have a career. Bob Jones University has a Mission Aviation major, but I'd be hard pressed to find a student there whose main concern is if it would somehow "pay off" to have the degree. I'm equally certain that the better approach is to be willing to take God's direction in this matter. If you are intended to fly for missions, you will, if you hold up your end. It is just as possible that your place is elsewhere.

 

[surfnole]

My situation was a little different than the student who can easily restart any career if one option doesn't work out, or who could use the A&P in a regular job or puruse non mission aviation opportunities. I was looking at leaving a career with family/etc. The only reason to obtain the A&P would have been to get into missionary flying. I had no interest in being an A&P otherwise, and not a lot of interest in being another type of missionary permanently. I still plan to go on a one year mission trip somewhere, perhaps with MAF.

I am one of those Christian's who has never strongly felt God's calling in my life. I know many who claim that God led them here and God led them there, and I think to myself....perhaps its just you who wanted to go there/do that and ask God to bless it. I don't doubt that it happens, I've just not seen it much in my life.

 

[onthebeach]

I am still praying for you, Avbug.

 

[avbug]

Save it. Go thump your bible some place else. Everytime one of you guys picks it up, the pounding give me a headache. Or perhaps that's heartache. You're the one who pronounced that I have the devil in my heart...remember?

I said it before, and I still maintain, that bible fanatics and Jesus freaks give Christianity a bad name. Zealots are all alike...muslim, christian, whatever.

I spent dedicated time doing exclusive service for my beliefs, and don't regret it. That you don't recognize that service in your own twisted viewpoint means nothing to me. It's a personal issue, none of your business.

I am not in need of your salvation, nor do I want to hear about it.

See you in hell, brightspark.

 

[mattfish42]

Surfnole, I think I can identify with what you're saying. It looks like missionary flying will involve a great deal of sacrifice. It would be foolish to sacrifice so much time, effort, comfort, and money without being certain that this is God's plan for me. On the other hand, I definitely don't want to pull a Jonah and say "forget it."

I need a few hundred more hours to hit MAF's minimums. That's ok, I was planning on getting that experience in the next couple years anyway. I need some bible college. That's ok, I was planning on doing that soon. I need to get my student loans paid off. Hmm, that one might not be so ok... that's going to take many years at the rate I'm going.

In the future, I would hate to look back at my aviation career and realize that all I had done was play with big shiny toys. I would also hate to look back at a gargantuan mistake that cost me years of my life spent someplace I wasn't supposed to be.

Need some wisdom here. Better pray.

By the way, Turbo, the various pilot/mechanics profiled at those websites all seem to be married with kids. Do you know whether MAF and JAARS consider that to be some evidence of the spiritual maturity they require? If so, I guess I need to add "get a wife" to my to-do list.

 

[Timebuilder]

I said it before, and I still maintain, that bible fanatics and Jesus freaks give Christianity a bad name. Zealots are all alike...muslim, christian, whatever.

No, any more than pilots are alike. Or airplanes.

A lot of people look at Hare Krishnas, Presbyterians, or monkey worshippers and think that these are all ways to the same result, and that a moderate, accepting, homogenized view of spiritual matters is somehow "good" and "equivalent."

Bull.

The purpose of the Bible, one can easily determine by a little study, is to lay out a history of God's relationship to man, and to proscribe the method that God desires His creation to worship and conform to His plans. It is simple and complete. No other doctrine, no other name, no other "book." Period.

"Zealot" is being used here as a perjorative term, an intended insult, and "Christian" is mentioned next to others in the above post as an "also ran" competitor, in a vain attempt to belittle one who believes the Word. Nice try. This is like taking, say, a list of caregivers, and comparing them on effectiveness. "Those voodoo priests, medical doctors, and crystal therapy people, they're all alike." No, not so. One of that list has the aspect of objective truth and effectiveness of preserving life on a regular basis. So is the one group that follows the truth of God, an objective and complete truth that stands alone.

Now, here in America, you are free to follow just about any belief you want. That freedom does not make that belief right. Only God determines that, and communicates it in His Word.

As for a family being a requirement for missions work, I'd say I have seen exceptions. Not many, but I HAVE seen them.

If you choose to remain set on MAF, I'd start talking to them now about a time table and a mentoring track that will help you conform to whatever standard they set for their organization.

 

[Cat Driver]

Only the bible is the true book to follow?

Therein lies the problem that we have, try and convince, say, the muslims of that.

Cat.

 

[TurboS7]

Many missionaries are single. My daughter is a perfect example, 25 blond hair, blue eyes, 125lbs and lives in the boonies in Africa. If you were a single pilot and landed at her strip to fly here out someday wouldn't you be surprised.Generally the missions don't let you date per say as if gives the wrong impression especially like someplace like Africa.But there are other ways.... There are several pilots that worked for me that found their wives in Africa. Interesting stories.You might want to try AirServ them move to MAF. AirServ pays you howbeit at little but you would get a little taste of mission operations. AirServ is very much more hard core and mostly does humanitarian work. MAF is more family oriented.

 

[Timebuilder]

Only the bible is the true book to follow?

Therein lies the problem that we have, try and convince, say, the muslims of that.

Cat.

It isn't a problem for me, and according to the Bible, not everyone will believe. The only duty of the Christian insofar as others are concerned is to present the truth. While we should love our neighbor as ourselves, we have no way of pressuring a single person to believe. Even if we did, to do so would be useless, since one must come to God because of an open heart. We open the door, and after that, it's up to them. Islam, on the other hand, is largely spread by the point of the sword. In that case, your only choice is to conform or pay a bribe. If you don't like that, there is death.

Big difference on the surface, and a bigger difference in the content.

 

[mattfish42]

What other similar groups are there? I want to learn as much as I can before jumping in any particular direction.

 

[Timebuilder]

Aside from MAF and JARRS, I know of one NGO (non governmental organization) and that was mentioned earlier: AirServ.

http://www.airserv.org/

 

[onthebeach]

>>Save it. Go thump your bible some place else.<<
Sorry, no can do. Jesus commanded us to preach the Gospel to all nations. You are included in there somewhere, Avbug.
>>Everytime one of you guys picks it up, the pounding give me a headache. Or perhaps that's heartache.<<
No doubt this is the Holy Spirit ministering to you that you should attend to God's Word. I recommend that you listen to Him.

>>I said it before, and I still maintain, that bible fanatics and Jesus freaks give Christianity a bad name. Zealots are all alike...muslim, christian, whatever.<<
You are obviously strong and sincere in your beliefs. It is just as obvious that, according to Christ's own Word, you are sincerely wrong, and strongly misguided!

>>I spent dedicated time doing exclusive service for my beliefs, and don't regret it. That you don't recognize that service in your own twisted viewpoint means nothing to me. It's a personal issue, none of your business.<<
Sounds like a Mormon mission service to me. You could clear the whole thing up by speaking plainly. Why don't you get it out on the table? Are you ashamed of what you believed?
If you were/are associated with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholicism, or some other un-Godly cult, it's no wonder you are so confused and filled with contempt for Jesus, the living Word of God.

>>I am not in need of your salvation,<<
I have no salvation to offer you, but rather I commend to you the only salvation available to any sinner: That which Jesus provided by His death on the Cross.
>>nor do I want to hear about it.<<
As a human created in the image of God, with free will, that is your "privilege." However, I will continue to witness the Way, the Truth, and the Life to you, as long as I am able.

>>See you in hell, brightspark.<<

I forgive you with all of my heart for that bitter, shallow, and hate-filled remark. If you go to Hell (and it's your choice), you won't see me there. I'm going to Heaven because I have trusted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. "…if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." --Romans 10:9-10.
I'm still praying for you, Avbug.

 

[avbug]

Hateful? You don't know hate. You have never seen it, if you think that was hate.

Based on your stipulation, mate, I was saved a long time ago. If that's all it takes to be saved.

It isn't.

If you were/are associated with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholicism, or some other un-Godly cult , it's no wonder you are so confused and filled with contempt for Jesus, the living Word of God.

Like I said long ago, it's folks like you that give Christianity a bad name.

 

[redd]

Pius

Dear Jesus,


Please save me from your followers (onthebeach),


Amen.

 

[Timebuilder]

Romans 10:9-10 is specific about what is needed by someone to be saved: (this is just like reading an FAR, except that this is a lot more clear)

10:9
"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

In other words, if you have faith that the ressurection is a fact, and you tell people of your faith (confess with your mouth) you will be saved.

10:10
"For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.'

So, apparently, the requirement has been spelled out clearly. What one is to DO once one has been saved is spelled out in James.

Based on your stipulation, mate, I was saved a long time ago. If that's all it takes to be saved.

That's what the Bible says...

 

[avbug]

Well, that explains all the chest-beating and bible-thumping, doesn't it?

You're saving yourself.

I knew there had to be a purpose to all that chest beating and piousness.

 

[Timebuilder]

And just what is the reason for your crappy attitude?

Yeah, I know about the personal problems. I feel bad about that.

However, I have never beaten my chest at ANY time, and, as the lord is my witness, I'm sure not pious.

ROFLMAO!!!

 

[avbug]

I've said nothing about "personal problems," mate. Nor do I want your feelings, good, bad, or otherwise.

How about sticking to avaition, then, instead of bible thumping. The sound is reverberating to the point of extreme annoyance. Hawk Jesus some place else. I realize now that this is how you're going to get saved...squawking His name over and over until you've beat it into everyone by "confessing it" enough.

Enough is enough. Shut up already. You're saved. We get it.