MAF/pilot shortage

[TurboS7]

I just completed a great 7 day trip. We flew to LAS with a load of pax then positioned to ANC. We were flying out of ANC for two days. Our route went from ANC to point X following the Alcan. We did the route 4 times. It was wonderful to be back in God's country, Mt. Logan was an awesome site and it was clear for most of the time.
We then had a 41 hour layover at Riverside, CA. I took the crew and we went to visit Mission Aviaton Fellowship at Redlands, CA. It was really neat as they have a display of the Super Cruiser that Nate Saint flew. They brought what was left of it from Palm Beach(where the 5 missionaries were killed) then renovated the frame. The display tells the whole story. The FA's loved all the artifacts etc. from all over the world.
Having flown for MAF for a little while I got to met some really great friends. I was very disturbed to find out that they are only meeting 40% of their needs for pilots. There are many Christian pilot on this board and we do owe at least one term of our lives serving the Lord. MAF requires an A+P for the out stations,but they find they do not need the A+P for those that are based at a multiple pilot base.All pilots must raise their own support but MAF will asist you in that, really you are raising prayer support which is vital to mission work.
MAF also has a program with their King Air 200 program that is in need of airline pilots. Airline pilot rotate to several fields doing mission work with the airplane for 2 to 4 weeks stints. John Hook is the contact for the King Air flying.

 

[avbug]

I remember very well being in Madang in Papua New Guinea, as a missionary. I visited a shack where a U-206 was so loaded that the gear seemed it would squat straight out. It was packed such that daylight wasn't visible one side to the other, with goods, people, and chickens. I approached the pilot, and enquired about the flight. MAF, he said.

I asked about minimums or requirements for hiring at the time, and he told me not to bother, that MAF wouldn't consider someone of my "theological affiliation." I replied that I'm Christian; doesn't a Christian organization like MAF see life as "love one another" and an opportunity to take all comers?

No, he replied. "We hate catholics, too. But we'll fly them if they pay us enough."

I walked away and refrained from spitting on his boots.

Service, my tucus. That man's nose was so high in the air, he was drowning in his own nasal mucus. The difference between he and I is that being a Christian, I'll throw him a life preserver.

Even if he can't pay for it.

 

[nosehair]

Noses

Looks like you got your nose bent outta joint too, there, Avbug. Religion is like Love, (actually,it is love) no two people's religious experience is the same. Ya can't judge the MAF by one person's attitude. Every church I've ever been in has people who have the attitude that their religion (or their interpretation of their religion) is THE ONLY ONE. Don't let that bother you - it is only the person who is using religion as a self-worth booster. Fagedda 'bout it.

 

[TurboS7]

If it was Madang,(my sister Brenda Jackson, lived there for 5 years)that was Austraillian MAF. He was more than likely worried as he had busted every rule in the FOM and thought you were going to turn him in.

 

[Timebuilder]

I contacted MAF in 1998 after doing a little flying and hearing a fundraising spot on Christian radio.

They never mentioned the kind of flying that could be done without the A&P certs in their emails.

Funny. You'd think they could be interested enough to help someone prepare through an on-the-job A&P training program, working on the very same aircraft they use. Never mind several years already spent building engines and such.

I would have been happy to take them up on such an arrangement.

 

[TurboS7]

Times change. What has really hurt them is the shutting down of Moody Aviation. Moody used to give JAARS and MAF exactly what they were looking for. My Mom and Dad said that JAARS was desperate for pilots also. Looks like they took Moody for granted and it has caught up with them.

 

[Timebuilder]

Was Moody Aviation associated with the Moody Bible study organization?

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Questions about these types of outfits:

I keep hearing "All pilots must raise their own support" type of things. I am assuming that you won't be paid and thus will have to live off donations from others. What are the realistic costs for this and is it doable?

Do they have a good language teaching program and do they expect you to come with some sort of rudimentary language skills beyond English?

Last and finally, how devout do you have to be to get in. Are we talking showing up to church every week, showing up to church functions and helping out, or leading the prayer group? Also, the groups that I have run into are Protestants of one sort or another, is there one that is affiliated with Roman Catholics?

 

[Timebuilder]

Since you have asked a good question, and I have a few minutes before I have to travel into Philly for yet another on-camera audition (a bank commercial) I will give you my impression, based on missions I know of. Turbo will have more precise info, I'm sure.

First, there is belief. For most evangelical missions work, organizations look for a solid record of belief and service. You should be active in a local Bible church, doctrinally in line with the organization where you are seeking to serve. Most of the time, this means accepting and articulating that the Bible is the Word of God, inerrant and complete, that Christ is the Messiah of the Old Testament, and is the only means of salvation by accepting Him as personal savior and being born again. Obedience by baptism and the recommendation of other brothers and sisters in Christ would also be a good foundation.

When you go into missions work, you seek the support of your own church, along with others. Organizations such as Biblical Ministries Worldwide help with logistics and training of the missionaries, but mission families look to their home churches and other individuals for support.

I am saddened by Avbug's experience. Mostly, people work within organizations that share their core beliefs, and those of Avbug's religious affiliation do not share the same core beliefs about the Bible and the manner of worship that God shows us He wants in the Bible as do the majority of evangelical mission organizations. I believe these differences should certainly be handled more diplomatically, and on the whole, they are.



Does that help? I'll check back at dinner time.

 

[Cat Driver]

Several years ago I was looking for information on where I could find 100LL in Africa before I committed to ferrying an airplane from South Africa to Europe.

I had previously flown the western side of Africa and was looking for information regarding fuel availibility flying the eastern side of Africa.

I contacted MAF by e-mail and communicated with one of their principals in I belive California, although I may be wrong about exactly where he was.

I received zero help or even suggestions and felt that the attitude displayed by this one person reperesenting MAF was bordering on insulting.

If that is Christianity, I was not won over.

Cat Driver:

 

[ClearRight]

MAF requires you to raise a certain amount of support to be donated to MAF with your name on it. The money goes into their budget and out of that they pay you a salary and subsidise the flying you're doing. The support level is the same for all pilot families, however the actual amount you get as "pay" is determined by where you live. The overage goes into the operation of the organization (which includes cost of support staff, airplanes and parts, and actual flying).

At least that's how it was when I applied 6 years ago.

 

[TurboS7]

Cat Driver-If you called Miami Air and asked where the best Jet Fuel Prices are crossing the North Atlantic you would get the same type of help. If you called me a fellow pilot and asked ,I would sneak a peak at the fuel price list and forward that infomation on to you. Same principle applies at MAF, we are all human.

 

[TurboS7]

Clear right-you are right. The amount is presently at $5200.00. When I was with MAF I had to raise $4200.00, and we did it in 3 months with a lot of help from them. They do give you full health insurance, pay for housing, and also pay for your kids education. They take good care of their people. As I said earlier what is more important is the prayer support.JAARS on the other hand works diffrently. You get what you raise and you cannot go to the field until you have what they say you have to have. In my case at MAF with 5 kids at the time we couldn't survive on the quota for FLL($2200.00) per month. I don't know who put the quota together but it sure didn't make the grade for us in South Florida. But that is just the way things work, we had money from a business that we had just sold so we used it. The Lord provides one way or the other.

 

[Cat Driver]

Turbos7:

Price was not my concern, the information that I was seeking was availibility.

100LL is very hard to find in a lot of areas in Africa and parts of the middle east.

Anyhow I thought at the time that wth all the different locations that MAF has aircraft and all their contacts in Africa they just may have known about fuel that we and the company that did our overflight and landing clearances were unaware of.

So no real big deal, I just was a little disappointed in the reply that I received from a very simple question.

I have first hand knowledge of where 100LL can be had and where it canno't be found and if someone were to have contacted me I would think nothing of helping out my fellow man.....and I am not a religious person.......

Cat Driver:

 

[TurboS7]

More than likely the person you talked too didn't know. I guess due to the problems you have mentioned MAF plans to go to an all turbine fleet by 2005.

 

[A Squared]

Turbo

Your excuse for MAF rings very hollow.


True, Miami air would not be giving away it's fuel price information. Miami Air is in a competetive business and they probably spend some money researching fuel prices. As such the information represents a competetive advantage over another charter oprator who doesn't have that information. It would be entirely understandable if Miami air wouldn't give that info out.

The analogy breaks down completely when applied to MAF, which (presumably) is not a business, and is certainly not in competition with some private individual ferryng antique aircraft from Africa. Kinda hard to justify keeping such (potentially life saving) info secret in that context, especially for an organization which bills itself as humanitarian.

 

[Cat Driver]

Asquared :

Precisely.

You are bang on, money was never the issue, all I wanted was some advice regarding fuel availibility and we would gladly have paid for same.

Unless one has experienced ferrying aircraft in Africa you would not know the frustration and risk involved in that kind of flying.

Anyhow I was disappionted in attitude of the person that I spoke to on the phone........ no big deal...but it coloured my preception of MAF.

Cat

 

[ClearRight]

Cat-

It surprises me that you got such a response. Everyone I met in Redlands (HQ) was very pleasant and helpful. You may have gotten a staff member who didn't have any experience with Africa and probably dropped the ball or didn't take the time to get you in touch with someone who could help.

That's what happens when carnal man runs an eternal show!

 

[Timebuilder]

I too, am disappointed in the response you got when looking for fuel. However, Turbo's explanation about all of us being human is also "bang on."

If you expect a Christian to be immune from having a bad day, or being rude to someone looking for fuel, then you are mistaken. The people who work in ministries are often far more stressed than others, as they struggle to make their operations work every day. That isn't an excuse, it's a reality.

Every person responds to people according to the person they are, saved or not. While it is a very good idea to tune up your attitude if you follow Christ, it is not a prerequisite to being a Christian, nor does being a Christian necessarily mean that you become immune to temper, depression, or just downright cussedness. It does mean that if you partner and fellowship with other Christians, you will often be able to make significant improvements in your outlook.

In other words, you are far better off to judge Christianity by the sacrifice of Christ, compared to the personality of ANY believer.

 

[Cat Driver]

Please understand that it was not my intention to delve into the christianity issue, far from it as I have zero intrest in the subject.

I was only passing on my one short contact with MAF.

And of course I realize that everyone has bad days or whatever.

Cat

 

[mattfish42]

Missionary flying is something I want to do eventually. What kind of experience do you think would realistically be necessary before getting into this? Right now I've got just about two year's wrench time and 200 hours flight time, so I'm certain that I've got a lot more learning to do.

 

[avbug]

and those of Avbug's religious affiliation do not share the same core beliefs about the Bible and the manner of worship that God shows us He wants in the Bible as do the majority of evangelical mission organizations.

Really?

I guess that lumps you in the same pile as the MAF pilot I met. Both uninformed on that particular topic, and certainly in no positive manner.

 

[TurboS7]

Whoa, I didn't mean this post to turn into a theolodgical debate(however you spell it)There was a need and I wanted to present it. The qualifications for MAF go beyond the technical to the spiritual, which makes it tacky. You do not need to be a Christian to fly a MAF airplane. It flies the same no matter who is at the controls. I am sure that most non-Christian pilots fly ten times more efficient that a Christian pilot.MAF is looking for pilot's that love the Word of God and want to do whatever to further God's kingdom. If you are a non-Christian you will be asked to see things from a diffrent perspective. Notice, I am not with MAF due to attitude's that CAT Driver protrayed. MAF used to promote an attitude that we are here to fly airplanes and that is all. That has changed significantly in the last 15 years. They have come to realize that ministry happens every day no matter what you do.As for Africa MAF-USA only works in three countries, MAF(UK) is in charge of the rest, maybe Cat you should have called the Brits.

A+P 200 hours you have what MAF is looking for. I would call them now and start getting a spot lined up if you are interested.

 

[Timebuilder]

Really?

I guess that lumps you in the same pile as the MAF pilot I met. Both uninformed on that particular topic, and certainly in no positive manner.

If you mean that I do not subscribe to ideas like the bread and wine of the lord's supper actually becoming the body and blood of Christ during communion, that we should be praying to Christ's mother, or that "saints" are anything outside of being typical believers, then yes, you would be right about that. The Bible does not teach those things, and that's just the short list.

I am "positive" that those concepts are non-Biblical. That said, I will try and lead others to the truth in the Bible, and away from the constructs of Man. I will NOT be nasty about it.

 

[Cat Driver]

TurboS7 :

It was in 1999 that I contacted MAF, first by e-mail and then I phoned one of the principals in Ca.

The only reason I contacted MAF was I had talked to a MAF crew on 126.9 some years ago in Angola for traffic seperation in Luanda.

I met them at the airport the next day and they were very helpful and friendly.

So one day I thought, hey why not get ahold of MAF and ask if they knew of any fuel avalibility up the eastern side of Africa, as I had decided to fly that route.

When I talked to whomever in Ca. I was left with the impression that I was somehow an irritation to him..

In fact I almost told him to go f.ck himself, but my better judjment told me that would not really be proper.

By the way my wife is a born again and supports MAF as well as other organizations.

I am a savage with no religeous beliefe, what I do is take every human being as they are and judge them by their actions....

Religion has many facets, the Salvation Army can be judged by their helping the down trodden, the fanatics that flew into the twin towers are the other end of the spectrum.

Cat Driver:

 

[wms]

I was very disturbed to find out that they are only meeting 40% of their needs for pilots. There are many Christian pilot on this board and we do owe at least one term of our lives serving the Lord. MAF requires an A+P for the out stations,but they find they do not need the A+P for those that are based at a multiple pilot base.All pilots must raise their own support but MAF will asist you in that, really you are raising prayer support which is vital to mission work.

If it's really the Lord's will for someone to be a pilot there, He will provide the means. it doesn't require human intervention like fund-raising. Many people force things to happen no matter what and then say it was the Lord's will because they said a prayer after they set their own mind to it. The Lord will provide the desire, the opportunity and the means. There are similar organizations that work differently. And because we are pilots doesn't mean we need to serve the Lord as pilots. There are many ways to distribute what is His to begin with, not just for one period, but for life.

I am "positive" that those concepts are non-Biblical. That said, I will try and lead others to the truth in the Bible, and away from the constructs of Man. I will NOT be nasty about it.

Amen.

 

[TurboS7]

WMS-You are totally right and I agree with you. It is just interesting that the opportunity exsist. In my day it was harder to get into MAF or JAARS than it was getting into the airlines. The Lord REALLY had to open the doors and provide. HE is able and I think sometimes we are more effective in the world and not being a part of it than to be seperate from the world in our own cocoon of spirituality.

 

[TurboS7]

Cat Driver-When I was with MAF I would have taken the time out of the day to steer you in the right direction. Whomever the person was I will apologize on their behalf. I know quite a few people at Redlands and I would say that all of them would want me to do that, especially if you were offended in any way.

 

[Timebuilder]

If it's really the Lord's will for someone to be a pilot there, He will provide the means. it doesn't require human intervention like fund-raising. Many people force things to happen no matter what and then say it was the Lord's will because they said a prayer after they set their own mind to it. The Lord will provide the desire, the opportunity and the means. There are similar organizations that work differently. And because we are pilots doesn't mean we need to serve the Lord as pilots. There are many ways to distribute what is His to begin with, not just for one period, but for life.

God expects us to be good stewards, and work with the framework of organizations that serve Him, and follow the rules and requests that they have arrived at in a prayerful manner. If He calls, he WILL provide, but you can bet that He expects time, focus, and effort on your part, too. This may mean offering an MAF presentation to your local church, along with other churches that support missions. That isn't unreasonable.

 

[avbug]

If you mean that I do not subscribe to ideas like the bread and wine of the lord's supper actually becoming the body and blood of Christ during communion, that we should be praying to Christ's mother, or that "saints" are anything outside of being typical believers, then yes, you would be right about that. The Bible does not teach those things, and that's just the short list.

I don't believe those things either, no do I take communion, nor do I pray to anybody's mother, yada, yada. Again, I suppose that puts you in the same bracket as the MAF pilot who ignorantly and incorrectly identified my beliefs (as if it were his business), and then condemned them. Police, Prosecutor, Judge. Sentenced. Thanks.

Between us, the difference lies in that I will fully support one who does believe or do those things, and I will support them in their belief.

Use caution wherewith ye judge, for with what judgement ye judge, so therefore shall ye be judged. No?

I refuse to argue or discuss religion here, or elsewhere, save for a personal setting under which it may be appropriate. It seems without the benifit of such a discussion, the MAF pilot was quick to condemn, much like you. My own beliefs are quite irrelevant. I could be Southern Baptist, Progressive Episcopalian, Roman Catholic, LDS, Seventh Day Adventist, or even Buddhist (which permits one to be a Christian and still practice Buddhism with full compatability). You don't know. Yet without the benifit of that knowledge, so quick to judge, as you seem to feel you have all the answers.

So tell me, shrine mercenary, who delivered you the power to interpret Calvary? Or to judge, in direct contravention to all counsel by Paul, and Christ? Further, when considering the ministry or the general interaction between the "Christian" and the "Gentile," was it not Christ who supped with the publicans, walked among the leppers, and who healed the ear of him come to take him to custody and kill him? (It was). For those "christians" who will not associate with others because of their (incorrectly) perceived beliefs...they're not very "christian," are they?

Fuzzy wuzzy was a bear...

I'll not pursue this thread further. The nature of the picking apart and bible bashing itself is discrespectful, and hardly invites any spirt appropriate to the nature of the material.

Then again, On the Beach on this very site pronounced me captive of all evil, and told me I have the devil in my heart. Must be so, don't you think?