LXjet Mec lowers the bar.......

[jetstream]

May I refer you to the "Enough!" thread under this section?

 

[SiuDude]

I dont see us caving to low rates since, according to several LASA guys we are way to militant and we need to learn to play ball.

We have a rate for smaller airplanes, 37 seaters. If we take the difference from that(12 less seats than a 50 seater) and add it to our 50 seat rate we get a 62 seat rate(60-66 seats). Add that again and we get a 74 seat rate(in my mind up to a 76 seat A/C). That would be my starting point as a place to work from. That puts us basically equal to the SKW -700 rate and a few bucks over the SKW -900 rate(looking at the 10 year CA rate to compare).

What is the ASA -700 rate? What about the -900 rate? Both at 10 years... APC doesnt have the pay scales posted.

We only have 2 pay scales: up to 59 seats and 60-76 seats.
The 60-76 seat 10-year rate is $84.74.

 

[Abernathy]

Maybe they know something you don't from 2 years of bidding with it?

Globalization sucks! Ask any Continental pilot. It makes no difference what brand--Ames, AOS, SmartPref, or ADOPT.

The Delta pilots figured that out when they chose Navtec, the only seniority based system at the time, over the previous mentioned systems. Yes, SmartPref was available then and it was tested (to the extent that a non-operating system can be). It was rejected because it did not honor seniority and awards could not be explained. That's a good enough testimony for me. By the way, they were in bankruptcy.

Maybe line pilots should do some homework and make some phone calls to any buddies you have at Delta, ASA, Republic, and Virgin America.

It's clear that you are being mislead and information is being controlled by just a few "experts" (tounge in cheek).

Seek the truth, and you shall be set free!

Not everyone at ASA is thrilled with our version of PBS. I prefer it to our line bidding system, but I fly with enough guys who are confused at what they were awarded. If this many guys are still perplexed at how to bid, then maybe our system is too complex. It says something that 2 years later we still need PBS trainers.

I do OK with the system and can't complain too much about it, but I also get outsmarted by it from time to time, and I wind up with something hairy. I'm not enough of a "computer guy" I guess. There is VERY little room for error. The smallest misstep and you wind up with some nasty stuff. I have nothing to compare it to, so that's all I can comment on. Maybe that's the case with all PBS systems.

If we lose vacation low (which we ARE losing by the way), then I'd have no objection to entertaining an alternative PBS system. But I'd have to see it first.

 

[anon]

Personally, I would be open to looking at a new system. I think I would prefer a system where I could see the results of my bid in real time.

 

[79%N1]

So, is Smartpref going to have vacation low???? I would think if flica won't, neither will smartpref. So why switch over that???

 

[THE JUDGE]

Looking at the original post it appears that the real issue is not a “line in the sand”, an “ultimatum”, PBS, or pay rates.

The real issue looks like there may be a violation(s) of the Transition Process Agreement TPA.

The rank and file members of both pilot groups need to ask a number of direct and very relavent questions.

1.) Does the TPA have a proviso for requiring either mec to inform the other if a side negotiation may take place?
This would prevent the company from whipsawing one pilot group against the other and keep both mecs honest.

2.) If this is true, then did the Lxjet mec inform the Lasa that the company had contacted them (Lxjet mec)?

3.) Does the TPA have a requirement for a representative of the Lasa mec to attend and witness the negotiation process between the Company and the Lxjet mec ?

4.) Does the TPA specify mandatory ratification by “both” mecs in the event of a side negotiation tentative agreement?

5.) Does the Lxjet mec believe that they are in compliance with the TPA if the above mentioned provisos are in place?

6.) Did the Lxjet mec consult with ALPA legal before they embarked down the path they have currently chosen to follow?

7.) Has the Lasa mec consulted with ALPA legal and if so what is the response from ALPA legal?

 

[blesko]

Personally, I would be open to looking at a new system. I think I would prefer a system where I could see the results of my bid in real time.

instant gratification........that's what you're about. What if 50 people change their bid within the last 5 minutes of the window close and you're not on your computer and all of a sudden the server crashes? Really? Let's look at overall best quality of life for ALL pilot groups. I think the "legacy" XJET folks are a bit naive here where you "never buy or fly the A model of anything." If there are benefits to the Smartpref, you better d*** well spell them out here and many of you know my direct email.

If its the flashy new GUI that's the selling point, y'all can pound sand. Who cares about real time? I don't care what the company wants, I want what's best for our 4000 pilots. If all sides are pis*sed off, than its probably good. We're not going to appease 100% of the pilots, its simply not going to happen. You guys have to realize that we're all replaceable. The regionals can shrink, or grow. This is always a market from Montgomery, AL to Manchester UK.

The LXJET folks may feel they are taking the TWA approach, where they took concession after concession in hopes that things would be different. Folks, the market is changing; GoJet's been around over 5 years. The Pinnacle contract is done. It is what it is and there's nothing All the XJET or airline X pilots can do to fix/amend/change it. The pay scales ARE coming back. Do I want to make less? Gawd no, however, I want out, as should many. HOWEVER, if you're here, and choose to make this a career, there should be NOTHING wrong with that. So here comes the dedicated balance.

Guys, we're at am impasse at this contract negotiation, for LXJET/LASA/whoever. Those that smack pinnacle in the face are essentially those that demand exccessive pay raises and the "industry leading" contract. Look at what industry leading got COMAIR. Those guys set the bar and in a grand sense, we are indebted to them. If you think Jerry isn't salivating over this, again, you're high. It's business. I'm not saying we demand pay, but again, being the concervative I am, we demand, quality of life, work rules and pay consistent with managements P&L, EBITA consistent with 8K filings and realize the landscape has changed and if things go further south, more and more of our Barbie and Jet Brasilia's are going to be parked.

 

[www.]

Looking at the original post it appears that the real issue is not a “line in the sand”, an “ultimatum”, PBS, or pay rates.

The real issue looks like there may be a violation(s) of the Transition Process Agreement TPA.

The rank and file members of both pilot groups need to ask a number of direct and very relavent questions.

1.) Does the TPA have a proviso for requiring either mec to inform the other if a side negotiation may take place?
This would prevent the company from whipsawing one pilot group against the other and keep both mecs honest.

2.) If this is true, then did the Lxjet mec inform the Lasa that the company had contacted them (Lxjet mec)?

3.) Does the TPA have a requirement for a representative of the Lasa mec to attend and witness the negotiation process between the Company and the Lxjet mec ?

4.) Does the TPA specify mandatory ratification by “both” mecs in the event of a side negotiation tentative agreement?

5.) Does the Lxjet mec believe that they are in compliance with the TPA if the above mentioned provisos are in place?

6.) Did the Lxjet mec consult with ALPA legal before they embarked down the path they have currently chosen to follow?

7.) Has the Lasa mec consulted with ALPA legal and if so what is the response from ALPA legal?

This should be good. I'll take that beer now before the legal experts, yeah...right, start in.

 

[JumpersAway]

Real time bid results? How is this possible with any degree of accuracy? As more people wait to bid, and as time closes in on the end of the bid cycle, it will become more eratic. Nothing predictible or accurate will result from this. The only thing that will happen with "real time bidding" is the bogging down of the system, with little to no influence being affected by the bidder, in the end.

 

[enuffalready]

Real time bid results? How is this possible with any degree of accuracy? As more people wait to bid, and as time closes in on the end of the bid cycle, it will become more eratic. Nothing predictible or accurate will result from this. The only thing that will happen with "real time bidding" is the bogging down of the system, with little to no influence being affected by the bidder, in the end.

Have said this from the beginning....the only people that think this is a useful tool are ones with zero experience with PBS in a real world setting.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Server crash! Oh and what is meant by "pay scales are coming back"? As in going down or coming back up? I don't think these Pinnacle clowns are going to all of a sudden have ruined the job for everyone....I just hope I dont have to fly with any of them

 

[Nevets]

So, is Smartpref going to have vacation low???? I would think if flica won't, neither will smartpref. So why switch over that???

If you guys truly had researched smartpref, you would understand that it doesn't work the same way as your pbs. It doesn't work off of a virtual credit system. Its the same type of complaint about only having one bid sheet. IT DOESN'T WORK THE SAME WAY! Its just different in the way you bid and that doesn't mean its worse.

In regards to vacation in smartpref, the main key thing to negotiate is credit per vacation day. Which is true with any PBS.

 

[Nevets]

instant gratification........that's what you're about. What if 50 people change their bid within the last 5 minutes of the window close and you're not on your computer and all of a sudden the server crashes? Really? Let's look at overall best quality of life for ALL pilot groups. I think the "legacy" XJET folks are a bit naive here where you "never buy or fly the A model of anything." If there are benefits to the Smartpref, you better d*** well spell them out here and many of you know my direct email.

If its the flashy new GUI that's the selling point, y'all can pound sand. Who cares about real time? I don't care what the company wants, I want what's best for our 4000 pilots. If all sides are pis*sed off, than its probably good. We're not going to appease 100% of the pilots, its simply not going to happen. You guys have to realize that we're all replaceable. The regionals can shrink, or grow. This is always a market from Montgomery, AL to Manchester UK.

Fifty people can change their bid in your current PBS. Yes, same thing can happen in smartpref. So, if you don't like that feature, NOTHING stops you from ignoring it and pretending its like flight line. Nothing stops you from not looking at your prelim award so just consider it the same.

But that is not what live bidding is about to me. Beside the fact that it tells you how many people senior to you have bid and how many people have bid in the last 24 hours, live bidding allows me to see if I messed up my bid. If it shows me that I'm working on weekends when I asked for weekends off, I know right away that I either messed up my bid OR I'm not senior enough to hold weekends off. So then I change so I try to get one weekend day off and maybe it'll show me that I am senior enough for that OR maybe I'm not. That is the biggest positive to me in the live bidding. In actual use for phase two, the ebay effect has been minimal just as it was when Sun Country was testing it out. The GUI, which many people put down as if that is some kind of negative instead of being a computer programmer, will show you your second, third, fourth, fifth choice for all the trips you have in your line. If someone senior takes that particular trip, you know which one will replace that trip and if someone takes that trip, you know what your third choice is, etc. But somehow live bidding and the GUI is some kind of negative. I say, if its negative to you, don't look at it.

 

[Nevets]

Looking at the original post it appears that the real issue is not a “line in the sand”, an “ultimatum”, PBS, or pay rates.

The real issue looks like there may be a violation(s) of the Transition Process Agreement TPA.

The rank and file members of both pilot groups need to ask a number of direct and very relavent questions.

1.) Does the TPA have a proviso for requiring either mec to inform the other if a side negotiation may take place?
This would prevent the company from whipsawing one pilot group against the other and keep both mecs honest.

2.) If this is true, then did the Lxjet mec inform the Lasa that the company had contacted them (Lxjet mec)?

3.) Does the TPA have a requirement for a representative of the Lasa mec to attend and witness the negotiation process between the Company and the Lxjet mec ?

4.) Does the TPA specify mandatory ratification by “both” mecs in the event of a side negotiation tentative agreement?

5.) Does the Lxjet mec believe that they are in compliance with the TPA if the above mentioned provisos are in place?

6.) Did the Lxjet mec consult with ALPA legal before they embarked down the path they have currently chosen to follow?

7.) Has the Lasa mec consulted with ALPA legal and if so what is the response from ALPA legal?

The whole reason why we are even looking at the TPA now instead of negotiating a joint contract IS because of the ASA MEC ultimatum.

But to the rest of your post, so the TPA requires the XJT MEC to notify yours. Ok, its been done. Its just a notification requirement. Whipsaw can still happen because it doesn't stop the company from exercising their contractual right to invoke section 26 of our contract. There is no other requirement of actual participation in negotiations or even as observers.

If there is any disagreement, then it goes to arbitration between the two MECs, per the same T&PA. Lets assume for argument sake that the ASA MEC wins the arbitration. It would be a hollow and pointless win. Why? Because it would mean that the ASA MEC would have to ratify the LOA/MOU that comes out of those negotiations BUT there will not be any ratification. This will be decided by binding arbitration WITHOUT ratification of the XJT MEC, much less the ASA MEC. The ASA MEC has their ego hurt and so we are going to through all these motions for the same end result that they caused to begin with.

So in the end, the ASA MEC is spinning its wheels for a possible moral victory. Sounds like USAPA shenanigans.

 

[SiuDude]

Real time bid results? How is this possible with any degree of accuracy? As more people wait to bid, and as time closes in on the end of the bid cycle, it will become more eratic. Nothing predictible or accurate will result from this. The only thing that will happen with "real time bidding" is the bogging down of the system, with little to no influence being affected by the bidder, in the end.

They're used to it. Their current ILIW system (initial open time) is based on being by the computer at the right time.