LXjet Mec lowers the bar.......

[THE JUDGE]

Looking at the original post it appears that the real issue is not a “line in the sand”, an “ultimatum”, PBS, or pay rates.

The real issue looks like there may be a violation(s) of the Transition Process Agreement TPA.

The rank and file members of both pilot groups need to ask a number of direct and very relavent questions.

1.) Does the TPA have a proviso for requiring either mec to inform the other if a side negotiation may take place?
This would prevent the company from whipsawing one pilot group against the other and keep both mecs honest.

2.) If this is true, then did the Lxjet mec inform the Lasa that the company had contacted them (Lxjet mec)?

3.) Does the TPA have a requirement for a representative of the Lasa mec to attend and witness the negotiation process between the Company and the Lxjet mec ?

4.) Does the TPA specify mandatory ratification by “both” mecs in the event of a side negotiation tentative agreement?

5.) Does the Lxjet mec believe that they are in compliance with the TPA if the above mentioned provisos are in place?

6.) Did the Lxjet mec consult with ALPA legal before they embarked down the path they have currently chosen to follow?

7.) Has the Lasa mec consulted with ALPA legal and if so what is the response from ALPA legal?

 

[blesko]

Personally, I would be open to looking at a new system. I think I would prefer a system where I could see the results of my bid in real time.

instant gratification........that's what you're about. What if 50 people change their bid within the last 5 minutes of the window close and you're not on your computer and all of a sudden the server crashes? Really? Let's look at overall best quality of life for ALL pilot groups. I think the "legacy" XJET folks are a bit naive here where you "never buy or fly the A model of anything." If there are benefits to the Smartpref, you better d*** well spell them out here and many of you know my direct email.

If its the flashy new GUI that's the selling point, y'all can pound sand. Who cares about real time? I don't care what the company wants, I want what's best for our 4000 pilots. If all sides are pis*sed off, than its probably good. We're not going to appease 100% of the pilots, its simply not going to happen. You guys have to realize that we're all replaceable. The regionals can shrink, or grow. This is always a market from Montgomery, AL to Manchester UK.

The LXJET folks may feel they are taking the TWA approach, where they took concession after concession in hopes that things would be different. Folks, the market is changing; GoJet's been around over 5 years. The Pinnacle contract is done. It is what it is and there's nothing All the XJET or airline X pilots can do to fix/amend/change it. The pay scales ARE coming back. Do I want to make less? Gawd no, however, I want out, as should many. HOWEVER, if you're here, and choose to make this a career, there should be NOTHING wrong with that. So here comes the dedicated balance.

Guys, we're at am impasse at this contract negotiation, for LXJET/LASA/whoever. Those that smack pinnacle in the face are essentially those that demand exccessive pay raises and the "industry leading" contract. Look at what industry leading got COMAIR. Those guys set the bar and in a grand sense, we are indebted to them. If you think Jerry isn't salivating over this, again, you're high. It's business. I'm not saying we demand pay, but again, being the concervative I am, we demand, quality of life, work rules and pay consistent with managements P&L, EBITA consistent with 8K filings and realize the landscape has changed and if things go further south, more and more of our Barbie and Jet Brasilia's are going to be parked.

 

[www.]

Looking at the original post it appears that the real issue is not a “line in the sand”, an “ultimatum”, PBS, or pay rates.

The real issue looks like there may be a violation(s) of the Transition Process Agreement TPA.

The rank and file members of both pilot groups need to ask a number of direct and very relavent questions.

1.) Does the TPA have a proviso for requiring either mec to inform the other if a side negotiation may take place?
This would prevent the company from whipsawing one pilot group against the other and keep both mecs honest.

2.) If this is true, then did the Lxjet mec inform the Lasa that the company had contacted them (Lxjet mec)?

3.) Does the TPA have a requirement for a representative of the Lasa mec to attend and witness the negotiation process between the Company and the Lxjet mec ?

4.) Does the TPA specify mandatory ratification by “both” mecs in the event of a side negotiation tentative agreement?

5.) Does the Lxjet mec believe that they are in compliance with the TPA if the above mentioned provisos are in place?

6.) Did the Lxjet mec consult with ALPA legal before they embarked down the path they have currently chosen to follow?

7.) Has the Lasa mec consulted with ALPA legal and if so what is the response from ALPA legal?

This should be good. I'll take that beer now before the legal experts, yeah...right, start in.

 

[JumpersAway]

Real time bid results? How is this possible with any degree of accuracy? As more people wait to bid, and as time closes in on the end of the bid cycle, it will become more eratic. Nothing predictible or accurate will result from this. The only thing that will happen with "real time bidding" is the bogging down of the system, with little to no influence being affected by the bidder, in the end.

 

[enuffalready]

Real time bid results? How is this possible with any degree of accuracy? As more people wait to bid, and as time closes in on the end of the bid cycle, it will become more eratic. Nothing predictible or accurate will result from this. The only thing that will happen with "real time bidding" is the bogging down of the system, with little to no influence being affected by the bidder, in the end.

Have said this from the beginning....the only people that think this is a useful tool are ones with zero experience with PBS in a real world setting.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Server crash! Oh and what is meant by "pay scales are coming back"? As in going down or coming back up? I don't think these Pinnacle clowns are going to all of a sudden have ruined the job for everyone....I just hope I dont have to fly with any of them

 

[Nevets]

So, is Smartpref going to have vacation low???? I would think if flica won't, neither will smartpref. So why switch over that???

If you guys truly had researched smartpref, you would understand that it doesn't work the same way as your pbs. It doesn't work off of a virtual credit system. Its the same type of complaint about only having one bid sheet. IT DOESN'T WORK THE SAME WAY! Its just different in the way you bid and that doesn't mean its worse.

In regards to vacation in smartpref, the main key thing to negotiate is credit per vacation day. Which is true with any PBS.

 

[Nevets]

instant gratification........that's what you're about. What if 50 people change their bid within the last 5 minutes of the window close and you're not on your computer and all of a sudden the server crashes? Really? Let's look at overall best quality of life for ALL pilot groups. I think the "legacy" XJET folks are a bit naive here where you "never buy or fly the A model of anything." If there are benefits to the Smartpref, you better d*** well spell them out here and many of you know my direct email.

If its the flashy new GUI that's the selling point, y'all can pound sand. Who cares about real time? I don't care what the company wants, I want what's best for our 4000 pilots. If all sides are pis*sed off, than its probably good. We're not going to appease 100% of the pilots, its simply not going to happen. You guys have to realize that we're all replaceable. The regionals can shrink, or grow. This is always a market from Montgomery, AL to Manchester UK.

Fifty people can change their bid in your current PBS. Yes, same thing can happen in smartpref. So, if you don't like that feature, NOTHING stops you from ignoring it and pretending its like flight line. Nothing stops you from not looking at your prelim award so just consider it the same.

But that is not what live bidding is about to me. Beside the fact that it tells you how many people senior to you have bid and how many people have bid in the last 24 hours, live bidding allows me to see if I messed up my bid. If it shows me that I'm working on weekends when I asked for weekends off, I know right away that I either messed up my bid OR I'm not senior enough to hold weekends off. So then I change so I try to get one weekend day off and maybe it'll show me that I am senior enough for that OR maybe I'm not. That is the biggest positive to me in the live bidding. In actual use for phase two, the ebay effect has been minimal just as it was when Sun Country was testing it out. The GUI, which many people put down as if that is some kind of negative instead of being a computer programmer, will show you your second, third, fourth, fifth choice for all the trips you have in your line. If someone senior takes that particular trip, you know which one will replace that trip and if someone takes that trip, you know what your third choice is, etc. But somehow live bidding and the GUI is some kind of negative. I say, if its negative to you, don't look at it.

 

[Nevets]

Looking at the original post it appears that the real issue is not a “line in the sand”, an “ultimatum”, PBS, or pay rates.

The real issue looks like there may be a violation(s) of the Transition Process Agreement TPA.

The rank and file members of both pilot groups need to ask a number of direct and very relavent questions.

1.) Does the TPA have a proviso for requiring either mec to inform the other if a side negotiation may take place?
This would prevent the company from whipsawing one pilot group against the other and keep both mecs honest.

2.) If this is true, then did the Lxjet mec inform the Lasa that the company had contacted them (Lxjet mec)?

3.) Does the TPA have a requirement for a representative of the Lasa mec to attend and witness the negotiation process between the Company and the Lxjet mec ?

4.) Does the TPA specify mandatory ratification by “both” mecs in the event of a side negotiation tentative agreement?

5.) Does the Lxjet mec believe that they are in compliance with the TPA if the above mentioned provisos are in place?

6.) Did the Lxjet mec consult with ALPA legal before they embarked down the path they have currently chosen to follow?

7.) Has the Lasa mec consulted with ALPA legal and if so what is the response from ALPA legal?

The whole reason why we are even looking at the TPA now instead of negotiating a joint contract IS because of the ASA MEC ultimatum.

But to the rest of your post, so the TPA requires the XJT MEC to notify yours. Ok, its been done. Its just a notification requirement. Whipsaw can still happen because it doesn't stop the company from exercising their contractual right to invoke section 26 of our contract. There is no other requirement of actual participation in negotiations or even as observers.

If there is any disagreement, then it goes to arbitration between the two MECs, per the same T&PA. Lets assume for argument sake that the ASA MEC wins the arbitration. It would be a hollow and pointless win. Why? Because it would mean that the ASA MEC would have to ratify the LOA/MOU that comes out of those negotiations BUT there will not be any ratification. This will be decided by binding arbitration WITHOUT ratification of the XJT MEC, much less the ASA MEC. The ASA MEC has their ego hurt and so we are going to through all these motions for the same end result that they caused to begin with.

So in the end, the ASA MEC is spinning its wheels for a possible moral victory. Sounds like USAPA shenanigans.

 

[SiuDude]

Real time bid results? How is this possible with any degree of accuracy? As more people wait to bid, and as time closes in on the end of the bid cycle, it will become more eratic. Nothing predictible or accurate will result from this. The only thing that will happen with "real time bidding" is the bogging down of the system, with little to no influence being affected by the bidder, in the end.

They're used to it. Their current ILIW system (initial open time) is based on being by the computer at the right time.

 

[Nevets]

They're used to it. Their current ILIW system (initial open time) is based on being by the computer at the right time.

Good point except the it will be seniority based and it will be a 7 day window as opposed to a 24 hour window.

 

[pilotnbr1]

Real time bid results? How is this possible with any degree of accuracy? As more people wait to bid, and as time closes in on the end of the bid cycle, it will become more eratic. Nothing predictible or accurate will result from this. The only thing that will happen with "real time bidding" is the bogging down of the system, with little to no influence being affected by the bidder, in the end.

By that logic there is no value to the 2 Prelim awards currently being generated before the PrefBid close... I think you can easily see the parallel I am creating between Prefbid prelims and realtime bid results of SmartPref.=)

At the least the Prelims will save you from making some huge bid error- such as getting naps by mistake when you were wanting 2 day trips, or an addition error when calculating how many credits you need to complete your line.

In the end you will get what you can hold in either system. In Smartpref you can watch it to the last second and tweak it, but the guys senior to you will still get what they can hold and thus so will you.

I equate Smartprefs realtime bid award to many Prefbid Prelims... Why is MORE information a bad thing...

Additionally I am not too worried about the system crashing... It is purely a function of having enough hardware to crunch the data. Ebay runs every day with millions of users making simultaneous requests against their servers. I think that us 4000 pilots will be easily managed. That will be the vendors problem. That said I am not an IT professional or programmer- otherwise I most likely would have stopped flying and chased the money!

 

[pilotnbr1]

I think both MECs see the potential for whipsaw here. The company is dangling a carrot of larger aircraft and the potential to make more money. This negotiation is a test by the company to see how willing the ERJ side is to play ball. The company knows that the ERJ side will most likely never settle for less than the current ASA CRJ rates. They are testing the waters to see how much MORE the ERJ side wants. The company knows that whatever is agreed on will ultimately be the going rate for that size aircraft in the future for XJET and SKYWEST....

The potential for whipsaw exists IF the ERJ side takes less than the CRJ rates undercutting ASA.. That would be a huge sellout by that MEC to their members and to the ASA side.. I just don't see it happening right now..

 

[Oakum_Boy]

It will happen. They're trying to work a deal with management on the PBS issue. Mark my words, there will be a deal for 76-seat pay for less than what ASA does it for now. The L-XJet MEC is going to be the lowest bidder. You heard it here first

 

[Whydoitry]

It will happen. They're trying to work a deal with management on the PBS issue. Mark my words, there will be a deal for 76-seat pay for less than what ASA does it for now. The L-XJet MEC is going to be the lowest bidder. You heard it here first

If you are correct then the entire MEC will be thrown out, and they know it. Not only that but what is the difference between ERJ rates and CRJ700 rates, $2 or $3? That's pathetic. You can be sure whatever rates we get will be imposed by arbitration.

 

[nerjdriver]

A mutually beneficial working relationship between the ASA MEC, the XJT MEC, and the Company is essential. Our Transition and Process Agreement (TPA), as agreed to by the Company, ASA and XJT MECs, establishes terms for a smooth transition process to reach a single, unified Pilot group with a single contract. The Company and the XJT MEC met last week without the ASA MEC to obtain new equipment terms and conditions, including new equipment pay rates.
*****
If management approaches either of the pilot groups to make significant changes to our current CBAs, we could soon find ourselves in a ‘race to the bottom’ scenario by negotiating with either MEC separately. Notable changes to one contract without the approval of the other MEC could result in consequences that would compromise reaching a JCBA. Without question, whipsawing is a common tactic used by airline managements – such tactics must be defended against by enforcing our Transition and Process Agreement. The ASA MEC supports the XJT MEC obtaining favorable terms and conditions for new equipment; however we feel it is important to follow the agreed-upon process to reach such agreement.
*****
The*****ASA*****MEC has*****initiated the process to enforce the*****TPA provisions where applicable. The*****ASA*****MEC is hopeful that the*****XJT*****MEC will negotiate with one goal in mind, a unity of purpose, and close cooperation among both the*****ASA*****MEC and*****XJT*****MEC to ensure all pilot’s interests are represented.

Dear Moron,

The XJT MEC has a responsibility to the XJT Pilot group to enforce and engage the company in OUR CBA. Sorry you are left out, are you going to take your ball and go home now?

 

[COOPERVANE]

Nah. I cant see the ERJ guys settling.

They are not gonna take concessions. I am sure of that.

 

[enuffalready]

By that logic there is no value to the 2 Prelim awards currently being generated before the PrefBid close... I think you can easily see the parallel I am creating between Prefbid prelims and realtime bid results of SmartPref.=)

At the least the Prelims will save you from making some huge bid error- such as getting naps by mistake when you were wanting 2 day trips, or an addition error when calculating how many credits you need to complete your line.

In the end you will get what you can hold in either system. In Smartpref you can watch it to the last second and tweak it, but the guys senior to you will still get what they can hold and thus so will you.

I equate Smartprefs realtime bid award to many Prefbid Prelims... Why is MORE information a bad thing...

Additionally I am not too worried about the system crashing... It is purely a function of having enough hardware to crunch the data. Ebay runs every day with millions of users making simultaneous requests against their servers. I think that us 4000 pilots will be easily managed. That will be the vendors problem. That said I am not an IT professional or programmer- otherwise I most likely would have stopped flying and chased the money!

i(we) agree.. they are both pretty useless... but the point from the beginning is the LXJT guys were all excited about.. and were selling this a major feature.... all we have said from the beginning is that it is just about worthless and certainly nothing to switch entire PBS software or get excited about....all sizzle... no steak on this one... dont buy into the hype

and ebay is an IT company that requires its system to be state of the art or it turns away customers fast.... don't think for a second that any system we have will be run by more than shoe string... at best... You are comparing apples to snow boards

 

[Nevets]

It will happen. They're trying to work a deal with management on the PBS issue. Mark my words, there will be a deal for 76-seat pay for less than what ASA does it for now. The L-XJet MEC is going to be the lowest bidder. You heard it here first

If you are talking PURELY about rates, I can see this happening. For one, IF the rates were to be the exact as yours, the total compensation would be much higher. Why? Because the company is not just paying you your rate times how many hours you credit. Our contract has higher 401k matching rates than yours and it also has a defined company contribution on top of that that your contract does not have at all. This is why our 50 seat compensation is just a percentage or two from your total 76 compensation. Second, its not even just rate plus matching plus contribution but also the better work rules in our contract that allows more soft time.

The rate is just a cost multiplier as far as management sees it. When you throw in the matching and the contribution to that multiplier their total cost of the contract becomes higher compared to the same rate, matching funds, and contract on the ASA side.

i(we) agree.. they are both pretty useless... but the point from the beginning is the LXJT guys were all excited about.. and were selling this a major feature.... all we have said from the beginning is that it is just about worthless and certainly nothing to switch entire PBS software or get excited about....all sizzle... no steak on this one... dont buy into the hype

and ebay is an IT company that requires its system to be state of the art or it turns away customers fast.... don't think for a second that any system we have will be run by more than shoe string... at best... You are comparing apples to snow boards

I must not have explained the ebay thing correctly if that's what you think. I wasn't comparing the company called ebay to crewing solutions. I was making a comment about the "ebay effect" of live bidding. Did I make myself clearer this time?

As for it being worthless, if you feel like knowing if you screwed up your bid, knowing what different strategies may look like at your seniority, or just plain being able to see if you can hold a certain day off at your seniority is worthless, then just ignore it. It'll be the equivalent to ignoring your two prelim awards. No harm no foul.

 

[automagrt]

recall, all of ASA MEC