LXJET 70+ seat rates out

[Nevets]

So you're saying it's LASA's fault that LXJT has an arbitration section in their contract? I'm sure we knew about it but bottom line it's YOUR contract it's in correct? Thought so but doubt you get it....passing blame for your faults won't hunt.

If they knew about and still give their flight line or no merger ultimatum, then they are not as smart as you think they are. No blame at all. I'm fine with all of it. Just pointing out that it was the ASA MEC who was the catalyst of all of this.

If you want to complain about the arbitration award, go complain to your MEC. What is it you don't get about any of what I just said? I AM NOT BLAMING ANYONE! Just pointing out facts that led us to where we are now.

 

[79%N1]

How many times does everyone need to say the same damn thing? This is literal insanity!

 

[Nevets]

How many times does everyone need to say the same damn thing? This is literal insanity!

That was exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Freebrd]

I'm just saying the arbitration section is in your contract, LASA MEC didn't put it there. Perhaps your group shouldn't have voted that in is all I'm saying, regardless if you're fine with it, our MEC "forced" you into it, whatever blah blah blah.

 

[Nevets]

I'm just saying the arbitration section is in your contract, LASA MEC didn't put it there. Perhaps your group shouldn't have voted that in is all I'm saying, regardless if you're fine with it, our MEC "forced" you into it, whatever blah blah blah.

And I'm just saying that if it was so bad, maybe your MEC shouldn't have given their flight line or no merger ultimatum.

Here let me put it this way since you guys seem to be having a hard time grasping the situation: if your MEC would have agreed to management's idea of using third party neutral arbitration as a dispute resolution method in order to pick a PBS vendor, the company would not have invoked their contractual right in order to get rates for larger aircraft in order to execute their business plan they bought into when Skywest acquired us. In other words, if the ASA MEC would have agreed to arbitration, we wouldn't be reading about your complaining of our bad contract language.

Do you understand now?

And yes, I'm fine with how it's all transpired and fine with the boiler plate language in our contract voted in 9 years ago that prevented your MEC from holding this whole company hostage, ala US Airways East!

 

[dojetdriver]

I'm just saying the arbitration section is in your contract, LASA MEC didn't put it there. Perhaps your group shouldn't have voted that in is all I'm saying.

YEAH!!!!!! Circular arguments that go nowhere!!!!!

Let's see, CRJ reserve rules COMPLETELY suck. XJT MEC didn't put them in there. Perhaps the CRJ group shouldn't have voted them in AT ALL.

Because they're sure as sh1t not good in getting a decent JCBA and affect ALL of us.

Wow, see how easy that was? Amazing.......

 

[centralpilot]

I'm just saying the arbitration section is in your contract, LASA MEC didn't put it there. Perhaps your group shouldn't have voted that in is all I'm saying, regardless if you're fine with it, our MEC "forced" you into it, whatever blah blah blah.

Of all the criticisms that could be made, this is one of the most absurd. XJT's 2004 contract is generally the best in the regional segment and they would have been foolish to vote down the TA over a missing clause in Section 26.

With that said, completely blaming the L-ASA pilots for the invoking of section 26 is pretty dishonest. It takes two to disagree and L-ASA would never have pressed so hard on the issue if L-XJT hadn't insisted on sinking time/resources into reinventing the wheel with an unproven PBS system. Before we go in another loop I'll reiterate that I disapprove of L-ASA drawing so hard a line on the issue.

In any case these arguments are circular and unproductive. Everyone needs to take it down a notch, try to see things from both sides, and implore their reps to find a way to move forward. I believe (perhaps naively) that both sides have done what they thought was in the pilots' best interest, but this infighting has gone on for far too long.

 

[centralpilot]

Let's see, CRJ reserve rules COMPLETELY suck.

Yes, they do indeed.

Perhaps the CRJ group shouldn't have voted them in AT ALL.

They shouldn't have, but we have a long history of giving zero $&@"s about reserve QOL. Senior pilots see reserve as a right of passage. They dealt with the suck, so why should their raises be lessened by reserve improvements? Never mind that some of them spent only months, weeks, or zero time on reserve while many are currently serving many years.

Meanwhile not enough line-holding FOs realize how important those rules will be when they upgrade and reserve is significantly longer. If the negotiating committee won't fight for it a TA vote will never fail on reserve rules alone.

I had high hopes that the JCBA would fix this but given the current state of dysfunction I'm no longer optimistic.

 

[Nevets]

With that said, completely blaming the L-ASA pilots for the invoking of section 26 is pretty dishonest. It takes two to disagree and L-ASA would never have pressed so hard on the issue if L-XJT hadn't insisted on sinking time/resources into reinventing the wheel with an unproven PBS system. Before we go in another loop I'll reiterate that I disapprove of L-ASA drawing so hard a line on the issue.

Who is blaming any ASA pilot? We are talking about the ASA MEC. The fact is that there have been other disagreements between the MECs when it came to deciding what things to negotiate for. The problem is not disagreement. the problem is the ASA MEC's intransigence, close mindedness, and their unwillingness to compromise.

PBS is the only thing they couldn't agree to. Regardless of if you perceive that the XJT MEC sank time/resources into reinventing the wheel with an unproven PBS system, the fact remains that if the ASA MEC would have agreed to third party neutral arbitration to resolve this dispute instead of delivering the company their flight line or no merger ultimatum, the company wouldn't have been forced to invoke section 26 in order to get large RJ aircraft rates in order to execute their business plan, the whole reason Skywest bought XJT and negotiated the right to replace 90 aircraft.

What is it that none of you guys can understand about that? Again, if the ASA MEC would have agreed to the company's idea of using an arbitrator to chose the PBS vendor, as the XJT MEC had agreed to, the company wouldn't have taken the path they felt they needed to take to secure a viable business plan going forward. The problem was not the XJT scheduling committee preparing for the introduction of PBS in phase 2. The problem was the ASA MEC insistence on not agreeing to any dispute resolution idea that didnt guarantee flight line as the final outcome. Otherwise they would have agreed to arbitrate it. If the ASA MEC is so smart and have all this vast experience with PBS, and had supposedly researched all PBS softwares including a re-research of PBS, and all the negative things about smartpref, they should have had absolutely no problem convincing a neutral arbitrator that, in fact, flight line was the best PBS system ever. But again, that was never the ASA MEC thinking because they had already made up their mind a long time ago.

So what is dishonest?

 

[centralpilot]

If the ASA MEC is so smart and have all this vast experience with PBS, and had supposedly researched all PBS softwares including a re-research of PBS, and all the negative things about smartpref, they should have had absolutely no problem convincing a neutral arbitrator that, in fact, flight line was the best PBS system ever.

I agree with this. I made this exact same argument to my reps around a year ago. Obviously it wasn't convincing and I am likewise troubled by the resistance to neutral arbitration.

As for the rest, I don't have the energy or desire to go in another circle on this. I'm much more interested in the next step. Hopefully an agreement on a way to move forward will be reached soon.

 

[79%N1]

..........................and it continues!

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Somehow this REEKS of a power struggle. It makes no sense otherwise.

 

[dojetdriver]

They shouldn't have, but we have a long history of giving zero $&@"s about reserve QOL. Senior pilots see reserve as a right of passage. They dealt with the suck, so why should their raises be lessened by reserve improvements? Never mind that some of them spent only months, weeks, or zero time on reserve while many are currently serving many years.

I know what you mean brotha'. I was just using it as an example of how asinine this whole circular argument has become and how this stupid blame game is going on.

Meanwhile not enough line-holding FOs realize how important those rules will be when they upgrade and reserve is significantly longer.

ERJ has the same issue. It always cracks me up to hear/read the reserve CA's complain about how much reserve sucks, as well as how "long" they've been on reserve. As an FO, they maybe say reserve 1-3 months back in 2006, etc. It sucks for sure.

If the negotiating committee won't fight for it a TA vote will never fail on reserve rules alone.

I had high hopes that the JCBA would fix this but given the current state of dysfunction I'm no longer optimistic.

Me neither. Keep filling out the apps, keep updating the apps, and GTFO ASAP.

 

[Nevets]

I agree with this. I made this exact same argument to my reps around a year ago. Obviously it wasn't convincing and I am likewise troubled by the resistance to neutral arbitration.

And this is all I'm saying. Their resistance to a common sense dispute resolution process is what has gotten us where we are now. Those are the facts, plain and simple.

Somehow this REEKS of a power struggle. It makes no sense otherwise.

Yes, I whole heartedly agree. The XJT MEC was willing to relinquish their "power" to a neutral third party arbitrator. But I've heard a rumor that, to their credit if its true, they have decided to put the issue to vote amongst us line pilots.

 

[asayankee]

I agree with this. I made this exact same argument to my reps around a year ago. Obviously it wasn't convincing and I am likewise troubled by the resistance to neutral arbitration.

As for the rest, I don't have the energy or desire to go in another circle on this. I'm much more interested in the next step. Hopefully an agreement on a way to move forward will be reached soon.

What everyone needs to remember and what your new large aircraft rates represent perfectly is that an arbitrator has ZERO interest in what is the best system for the employees. They are interested only in industry average and what they think will also help the company compete.... Why expose yourself to that risk? It makes no sense.

 

[Nevets]

What everyone needs to remember and what your new large aircraft rates represent perfectly is that an arbitrator has ZERO interest in what is the best system for the employees. They are interested only in industry average and what they think will also help the company compete.... Why expose yourself to that risk? It makes no sense.

That may be true when an arbitrator is deciding between the company and an employee group. This would be a dispute resolution between two employee groups. The scope and methodology of his decision would be decided mutually between the MECs.

A real life example of it is the seniority list integration. Management has no say in that arbitration and therefore would not be part of the process and unable to make a case before the arbitrator. The union, ALPA in our case, decides that the arbitrator must consider in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category.

So you can see that the arbitrator has been given instructions on how to come to his conclusion. This is how the PBS arbitration would have worked. The arbitrator would have just picked a PBS vendor in accordance to his instructions and who made the best argument. The company has no say in this arbitration because they have no standing on what the MEC tries to negotiate for. After receiving the arbitrator's decision, the JNC would negotiate that PBS into the new contract. And of course management would attempt to negotiate the PBS work rules and the contract as a whole, as industry average.

 

[Ops check good]

how about you guys try to quit your bickering and fly the airplanes on time?

 

[centralpilot]

What everyone needs to remember and what your new large aircraft rates represent perfectly is that an arbitrator has ZERO interest in what is the best system for the employees. They are interested only in industry average and what they think will also help the company compete.... Why expose yourself to that risk? It makes no sense.

L-ASA is similarly exposed in section Contract 2007's section 26.D. Should the company seek to add a new aircraft type at L-ASA which we don't already have rates for (unlikely), we have the same short negotiation window followed by arbitration. The only difference is a clause that restricts the arbitrator from referencing similar carriers currently operating under bankruptcy protection or non-union carriers that don't operate under a CBA.

EDIT: I think I misread your point the first time through. Nevets covered why internal dispute arbitration wouldn't be the same.

 

[centralpilot]

how about you guys try to quit your bickering and fly the airplanes on time?

Right, because the pilots are the ones screwing up the operation

 

[Ops check good]

Right, because the pilots are the ones screwing up the operation

I had to say it because its funny. The pilots are not completely to blame but I have seen what a gung-ho flight crew can do for on time departures. Example: 22 min turn, full plane off, full plane on and a tire change. plane went out 1 min early. Why? well MX dominates for one and the captain was actually throwing bags! Thats what happy workers can do and Im just taking a guess but we all probably make less than you guys that are bitching all the time.