LUV Will Grow Little Or None In 2009

[momalley81]

We at APA saw it for what it was (a transfer of wealth from junior to senior). We tried to stop the train-wreck but unfortunately didn’t have the political muscle.

APA President Lloyd Hill confided in SWAPA President Carl Kulwitsky that he hoped Age 60 would go away. Of course he will never admit that but I heard the account first hand.

Many APA reps have also told our SWAPA reps they wished the APA could have a good working relationship with AMR; just like SWAPA has with SWA management.

APA is a spineless no muscle union.

How do I know?

I am a former AA pilot now flying for SWA.

 

[waveflyer]

No, He's playing poker with the pilots. Wants to trade wages freezes for growth.

wage freezes for growth?

ummm....b-scales.....scope.....any of that ringing a bell? no legacy- especially AA has a right to critique anyone on any front, much less that one.

btw_ call it flame-but i hope the truth of that hurts your pride. AA and all legacy pilots had 2 servings of ego for every 1/4 serving of foresight-
You honestly didn't think your tradition of selling out the junior in new and creative ways wouldn't come back to bite you?

 

[JoeMerchant]

APA President Lloyd Hill confided in SWAPA President Carl Kulwitsky that he hoped Age 60 would go away. Of course he will never admit that but I heard the account first hand.

Many APA reps have also told our SWAPA reps they wished the APA could have a good working relationship with AMR; just like SWAPA has with SWA management.

APA is a spineless no muscle union.

How do I know?

I am a former AA pilot now flying for SWA.

You mean a union rep. lied? Say it ain't so......

 

[Skybus]

Millions RJones??? how did you come up with this figure? Perhaps you are overyly optomistic re: upcomming new contract??

 

[waveflyer]

Millions RJones??? how did you come up with this figure? Perhaps you are overyly optomistic re: upcomming new contract??

I'll keep my current contract and it'll cost me $1million.

Einstein answered when asked 'What's the most powerful force in the Universe?'

'Compound Interest'.

 

[nimtz]

adminstartion? What are ya, frickin' drunk? Those "clods" were going nowhere until ALPA gave them credibility. Have another beer, whackjob. uke:

HEY I CAN MAKE AN BS FACE MOTION TOO :crying:

That honestly is your best defense!?! I very sorry you feel that way cause it means you pay union dues for the equvalent of a limp dick (probably sop for you)...

Let me ask u a simple question was SWAPA pro or against age 65 before and during 2007? When you answer that and check your union dues statements from your paycheck in 2007 then feel free to critque. In the meantime, b!te me...

 

[nimtz]

The change to age 65 started with just one guy...and it grew from there.

Likewise, the age change back to age 60 will eventually start with one guy....

...Are you that guy? ...or are you just a whiner?

In your eyes I'm sure I'm just some punk kid, but given your previous posts I could care less. I've learned enough in my time to know that anyone that refers to themselves as from 'tejas' is a rod to be left alone at the bar regardless of a promise to buy a 'dollar' beer for you ...

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

AA767,

I have some more questions for you....The first one you ignored the first time I asked it...

1. Are you financially ready to retire at age 60?

2. If APA is opposed to this, why don't you just negotiate a mandatory age 60 retirement in your contract....Then you will get what you want....

3. Wasn't it the APA group that first negotiated the B scale?

I doubt you will answer these questions as you seem to ignore the tough questions that are thrown your way and prefer to lob anonymous attacks at others...

Merchant,

I read the stuff coming from you guys and it’s no wonder the industry and our profession is in its current tailspin. You really have no clue of the ominous impact for the entire industry you guys caused by the Age 65 ruling. Standby to watch the carnage you help cause unfold over the next few years as the industry goes through its massive downsizing.

Southwest was the leading group of pilots that got the ball rolling on 65 over a decade ago. I watched it happen and was involved in the fight from the beginning. To blame it on ICAO while your group whole-heartily supported the measure is a bunch of cowardliness. This measure would have never seen the light of day if it wasn’t for the initial and long-standing support of the Southwest pilots. It’s obvious you do not understand the political impact your group has on the industry.

To Momalley that said Lloyd Hill supported Age 60 is complete spin. Why don’t you try reading some of his campaign literature? I’ve talked to him myself many times on the subject. Besides, our membership was solidly against the self destructive proposal.

To answer your questions Merchant:

1) I was ready until Age 65 cost me an additional 3-5 years in the right seat at a 68% cap in pay.
The rules were changed in the middle of the game.

2) You really have no clue to negotiations and lawsuits do you?? If APA was to go against the Federal law of Age 65, the entire union would be subject to a massive and unwinnable litigation.

3) No APA wasn’t the first, AA was the first major airline to implement it on a large scale 25 years ago. Read the book “Hard Landing” if you want to know your history.

Now let me ask you again – given your leading position in the industry, what has SWAPA actually done to improve our profession over the last five years besides giving us all Age 65?? How's your contract negotiations coming along or are you too busy giving love fests to Herb?

It’s funny hear how spineless and weak APA is coming from a group of pilots that have done virtually nothing while leading the pack since 911. At least we had retirement and medical plans set-up to encourage guys to retire at Age 60.

I also had one of you jumpseating a couple of weeks ago and he was telling us all about how your new-hire classes are now mostly made up of the over 60 guys coming back to work. You do realize there is an impending lawsuit from the “over 60 guys” trying to get back their seniority. What a sad joke.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[goahead]

Merchant,

I also had one of you jumpseating a couple of weeks ago and he was telling us all about how your new-hire classes are now mostly made up of the over 60 guys coming back to work. You do realize there is an impending lawsuit from the “over 60 guys” trying to get back their seniority. What a sad joke.


AA767AV8TOR

I'm assuming your talking about ASA and while I don't have a dog in this fight I can tell you that I haven't done OE on anyone over 30 in a long time.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I thought it started in Europe with ICAO changing the rules to allow age 65...

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Merchant,

I also had one of you jumpseating a couple of weeks ago and he was telling us all about how your new-hire classes are now mostly made up of the over 60 guys coming back to work. You do realize there is an impending lawsuit from the “over 60 guys” trying to get back their seniority. What a sad joke.

AA767AV8TOR

Bad info...We had one class of around 15 and there were a total of 21 who were interviewed and hired BUT a few were having problems getting a new medical. (If you have a waiver for any medical condition it's much easier to get renewed than to try to jump through the hoops with the FAA to get it back.) We did hire a few guys who took the lump sums elsewhere (Delta comes to mind!) and came over but they were all in their early 50's!

And by the way, AA767, One of your Kernal buddies over here who had a major hand in 65 is already on a push to go PaSt 65. Heard it straight from the horses mouth, SO maybe it all started with the Armed Services, the kindler gentler military should have never got away from "Blanket Parties" or "Code Reds" or whatever they wanna call them!!!.

I personally plan on retiring at 60 (or earlier) but I only have myself to blame for that if it doesn't happen!
KBB

 

[Patriot328]

Like I said, has SWAPA done anything to capitalize on their industry standing?? Have they improved your pay rates, retiree medical, increased pension benefits, or done anything about your worthless stock options?

In discussion now, and I bet we get a better deal than you will ever see in your lifetime.

I remember hearing the same quotes for UAL and DAL pilots when they got their contracts in 2000.

Careful with that ego scoreboard. It's a long fall.

 

[canyonblue]

HEY I CAN MAKE AN BS FACE MOTION TOO :crying:

That honestly is your best defense!?! I very sorry you feel that way cause it means you pay union dues for the equvalent of a limp dick (probably sop for you)...

Let me ask u a simple question was SWAPA pro or against age 65 before and during 2007? When you answer that and check your union dues statements from your paycheck in 2007 then feel free to critque. In the meantime, b!te me...

Come back when you're under .08. :beer:

 

[LuckyDad]

AA767
Quick question... if ICAO didnt really matter, how were ANY of the major airlines that have an international codeshare partner going to defend the position that it's safe to fly with a 60+ crew overseas, but not in the USA. I am not that familiar with AA, but do they have any international partners?
For the record, I was opposed to 65, but am not so shortsighted to believe it started or ended with SWAPA. Judging from your posts, I'd say there is enough hatred coming from you to spread it around a little more than just SWAPA...and by the way, the underlying jelousy is obvious.

 

[scoreboardII]

You really have no clue of the ominous impact for the entire industry you guys caused by the Age 65 ruling. What a sad joke.

AA767AV8TOR

You really live with your head in the sand don't you? Of course 65 is going to suck for 75% of all pilots, nobody discounts that. The difference is your goal is simply to point fingers and lay blame instead of dealing with it. It is a sad joke, only, your the punch line...

 

[MXAV8R]

Merchant,

Now let me ask you again – given your leading position in the industry, what has SWAPA actually done to improve our profession over the last five years besides giving us all Age 65?? How's your contract negotiations coming along or are you too busy giving love fests to Herb? .....

...I also had one of you jumpseating a couple of weeks ago and he was telling us all about how your new-hire classes are now mostly made up of the over 60 guys coming back to work. You do realize there is an impending lawsuit from the “over 60 guys” trying to get back their seniority. What a sad joke.

AA767AV8TOR

Dude this FOOL does not work for SWA. JoeMerch. works for ASA and is a TOOL.

 

[ultrarunner]

...I wasn't real keen on it either...I'll be a commuter for many more years now)...

Hold on a minute now....I ain't that smart an all...ya know, being a whitey from the south...but what the heck in the age 65 legislation prohibits you moving to your base????

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

AA767
Quick question... if ICAO didnt really matter, how were ANY of the major airlines that have an international codeshare partner going to defend the position that it's safe to fly with a 60+ crew overseas, but not in the USA. I am not that familiar with AA, but do they have any international partners?
For the record, I was opposed to 65, but am not so shortsighted to believe it started or ended with SWAPA. Judging from your posts, I'd say there is enough hatred coming from you to spread it around a little more than just SWAPA...and by the way, the underlying jelousy is obvious.

LuckyDad,


US pilots we were in the driver’s seat until worn down by the relentless assault on Age 65 driven first by a small group of Southwest pilots, then SWAPA, and then after 911, were aided by the senior pilots of the bankrupt legacies going for a quick money grab that resulted in the ominous legislation last December. When ALPA collapsed on the issue without having a majority, the game was basically over.


The more senior SWAPA guys were able to basically pull one over on their junior pilots since the junior guys just never figured they would have to live under the dubious effects of the legislation. It was a rule many of their pilots figured that would negatively affect others and not themselves. How ironic that just six short months after the legislation passed that the junior Southwest pilots will start to feel the stinging effects of what their senior brethren just pulled on them.


Keep in mind, just because some foreign pilots are flying past 60 shouldn’t mean squat to the US especially when it’s in the name of safety. The US was never a follower for international rules. That was never even a valid part of the argument.


Make no mistake about it – AGE 65 was all about taking money from the junior guy to make up either for an inadequate retirement plan or medical (as was the case of the Southwest pilots), outside economic events, or the terrorist acts of 911. What the senior pilots couldn’t negotiate with the company, they ultimately took from the junior guy’s portion to make up for their lack of success.

Age 65 passed with lighting speed through the back channels of Congress. Ever wonder why that was?? What happened was that the US pilots just helped the US government (and ICAO) to further merge our group towards being a seamless global pilot. Ever hear of cabatage?? McCain is a big supporter of it. Now explain to me how even the mighty Southwest in 5-10 years will be able to compete with some foreign pilot that makes about ¼ of your salary who is flying point to point across the US from say Love to Lubbock to Phoenix. Just remember, all the US government really cares about is cheap tickets to the mass public. They could care less about your jobs.


Now add to the current mess of the massive downsizing that is going to occur throughout the industry over the next few years and perhaps you can understand why I’m not too happy with SWAPA. SWAPA was in a position to do much good for the profession over the last decade but basically blew it and now the window is slamming closed again. Many families will be destroyed over the next few years as the industry downsizes and pilots lose their jobs -- this will only be compounded by Age 65.


While your senior guys basically went for a money grab and were looking out for only themselves, you will find out it will be a long-term mess that will have to be handled by the junior troops.


Am I envious of Southwest? Perhaps only of their management team, but certainly not the actions of SWAPA. No doubt Southwest has a great company and a solid management team. It’s just very unfortunate their pilots didn’t do more with the advantage they had. Herb basically shut down the pilots again. For that alone, he and his management team deserve a lot of credit.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[ultrarunner]

I thought it started in Europe with ICAO changing the rules to allow age 65...

Ski, I don't know if it started with the ICAO change, but that essentially fueled the fire.

As I said a long time ago, I expected 65 to pass, since, at the time, I did not think capitol hill would continue to allow the BK courts to strip the pensions AND require an age 60 retirement.

Timing is everything.

Time to press on.

 

[StopNTSing]

Hold on a minute now....I ain't that smart an all...ya know, being a whitey from the south...but what the heck in the age 65 legislation prohibits you moving to your base????

I'll try to make this as simple as possible. I'm a junior captain. I live outside PHX. I can't hold it as a Captain, and I don't want to be a Lance Cpt in PHX (that's SWA-speak for Cpt-qualified FO), so I commute to LAS (much less senior base). Since the Luke Mafia took over PHX a few years ago, PHX is well on it's way to becoming the most senior base at SWA for Captains. Hence, the only movement for PHX captains is RETIREMENTS...which just got pushed out five more years.

Clear as mud?

 

[ultrarunner]

Got it Stop...I don't blame you for not wanting to move to LAS.

I wasn't up to speed on the Lance CPT deal. What's that? They call you in to fly CPT if they need you? But you bid FO?

Interesting.

 

[scoreboardII]

LuckyDad,


US pilots we were in the driver’s seat until worn down by the relentless assault on Age 65 driven first by a small group of Southwest pilots
AA767AV8TOR

Your hate is blinding you to the facts AA.

ICAO started in Chicago, prodded onto existence by the legacies, of which you are a willing participant.

Your statement that the US doesn't play by the rules is baseless, WE started ICAO, the US...

The push for 65 started a decade or more ago overseas to solve a pilot shortage, SWA had no part, SWAPA had no part. Your correct, a small minority in SWAPA did sell a package deal fraught with crap for their economic gains, BUT their/SWAPA impact on the situation was insignificant, as in ZERO effect to the end result, age 65 is here to stay. With or without input by SWAPA.

Why did the rule pass quickly? You show us the fact on that one... So far, your just spouting sour grapes.

 

[StopNTSing]

Got it Stop...I don't blame you for not wanting to move to LAS.

I wasn't up to speed on the Lance CPT deal. What's that? They call you in to fly CPT if they need you? But you bid FO?

Interesting.

Basically, the top 8% of FOs at each domicile are Lances. They are fully-qualified as captains, but bid and are awarded FO lines of flying each month. They can pick up any captain trips that will fit into their schedule (they obviously try to give away all their FO trips). Some guys love it....to me it always seemed more like putting yourself on reserve the whole month. But if you absolutely, positively do not want to commute, it is a viable alternative.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I also had one of you jumpseating a couple of weeks ago and he was telling us all about how your new-hire classes are now mostly made up of the over 60 guys coming back to work.

Boy...did you ever get hooked in on that one.

So far we have hired 9 ( or so) New Hire classes this year. All of them have had 20-24 New Hires in each class. Although lately, they have all had 24 since we are pretty short of pilots.

the only class ( =1) that was made up of the returning retirees had only 14 in the class. Around 24 or so were hired out of all the retirees that interviewed...and some of that 24 have already decided not to come back.

New Hire classes "mostly" made up of over age 60 guys? Sounds like you need some new information sources

 

[Tejas-Jet]

In your eyes I'm sure I'm just some punk kid, -->I don't believe I have ever referred to you or anyone else on FI as a "punk kid"but given your previous posts I could care less.--->Good, keep it that way. I've learned enough in my time to know that anyone that refers to themselves as from 'tejas' is a rod to be left alone at the bar regardless of a promise to buy a 'dollar' beer for you ...--->Waaaaahhhhhh...wa...wa..waaaaahhhhhhh

 

[LuckyDad]

AA767
Thanks for your reply, but it still does not answer my basic question. How could any US carrier with a code share partner in Europe claim that 60+ was unsafe in the US, yet safe for their codesharing connecting passengers abroad? Defend that, from a company position, and you have to draw the logical conclusion that it was not just the unions wooing the lawmakers, but the companies as well. To say that SWAPA influenced ICAO is a bit far fetched, yet the ramifications of the ICAO change had to impact the rules here, because to not legislate the same level of "safety" is indefensable. I think you need to get past the contempt you hold for SWA(PA), and look at ALL those who held the pen that porked us all.
Did SWAPA help, you bet, but there were many other players on the field, probably a lot more than you and I will ever know.
I agree, 65 is a crock. Believe me, as a 46 year old 5 airline twice furloughed 6+ year FO, I'm effected pretty harshly (though not as bad as the really jr guys -- but I am in their boat). I agree with much of what you have said. I am watching with some interest on how AA is gonna handle what I see is a tremendous PR problem. After being so verbous about how unsafe a 60+ year old is, how are they (AA) handling pilots that age flying for them now. It would seem to be a pretty easy turd to drop in the punchbowl.
Lastly, there are a number of European carriers, SAS stands out, that (despite the rule change), still expect their pilots to retire at 60. Like you said, I don't think a company can prevent a greedy bastard from hanging on, but certainly a company and union can negotiate to the expecation that a pilot can financially and should retire at 60. Too bad that'll never happen, but it makes it a lot easier to point the finger of blame back at our own respective unions, instead of blaming someone elses.
Dad

 

[bmxandjets]

AA767
Thanks for your reply, but it still does not answer my basic question. How could any US carrier with a code share partner in Europe claim that 60+ was unsafe in the US, yet safe for their codesharing connecting passengers abroad? Defend that, from a company position, and you have to draw the logical conclusion that it was not just the unions wooing the lawmakers, but the companies as well. To say that SWAPA influenced ICAO is a bit far fetched, yet the ramifications of the ICAO change had to impact the rules here, because to not legislate the same level of "safety" is indefensable. I think you need to get past the contempt you hold for SWA(PA), and look at ALL those who held the pen that porked us all.
Did SWAPA help, you bet, but there were many other players on the field, probably a lot more than you and I will ever know.
I agree, 65 is a crock. Believe me, as a 46 year old 5 airline twice furloughed 6+ year FO, I'm effected pretty harshly (though not as bad as the really jr guys -- but I am in their boat). I agree with much of what you have said. I am watching with some interest on how AA is gonna handle what I see is a tremendous PR problem. After being so verbous about how unsafe a 60+ year old is, how are they (AA) handling pilots that age flying for them now. It would seem to be a pretty easy turd to drop in the punchbowl.
Lastly, there are a number of European carriers, SAS stands out, that (despite the rule change), still expect their pilots to retire at 60. Like you said, I don't think a company can prevent a greedy bastard from hanging on, but certainly a company and union can negotiate to the expecation that a pilot can financially and should retire at 60. Too bad that'll never happen, but it makes it a lot easier to point the finger of blame back at our own respective unions, instead of blaming someone elses.
Dad

great question..

 

[Slow to .90 Mac]

Boy...did you ever get hooked in on that one.

So far we have hired 9 ( or so) New Hire classes this year. All of them have had 20-24 New Hires in each class. Although lately, they have all had 24 since we are pretty short of pilots.

the only class ( =1) that was made up of the returning retirees had only 14 in the class. Around 24 or so were hired out of all the retirees that interviewed...and some of that 24 have already decided not to come back.

New Hire classes "mostly" made up of over age 60 guys? Sounds like you need some new information sources

Speaking of newhire classes.....

From the SWA People Dept yesterday.....as of right now, one to two newhire classes every month for the rest of the year.

 

[canyonblue]

Make no mistake about it – AGE 65 was all about taking money from the junior guy to make up either for an inadequate retirement plan or medical (as was the case of the Southwest pilots), outside economic events, or the terrorist acts of 911. What the senior pilots couldn’t negotiate with the company, they ultimately took from the junior guy’s portion to make up for their lack of success.

AA767AV8TOR

Ok Ace, then explain to me how a pilot at The All Great and Fabulous American Airlines cannot afford to leave at age 60? With your far superior retirement and medical plans, I wouldn't even think this was a problem at good old AA. In fact the MAJORITY of AA pilots OPPOSED age 65, exactly how many are staying, and why?

 

[ultrarunner]

A friend of mine bolted from AA, along with a dozen or so a few months ago. My friend was 55, and only one or so was 60.