LUV Will Grow Little Or None In 2009

[MXAV8R]

Merchant,

Now let me ask you again – given your leading position in the industry, what has SWAPA actually done to improve our profession over the last five years besides giving us all Age 65?? How's your contract negotiations coming along or are you too busy giving love fests to Herb? .....

...I also had one of you jumpseating a couple of weeks ago and he was telling us all about how your new-hire classes are now mostly made up of the over 60 guys coming back to work. You do realize there is an impending lawsuit from the “over 60 guys” trying to get back their seniority. What a sad joke.

AA767AV8TOR

Dude this FOOL does not work for SWA. JoeMerch. works for ASA and is a TOOL.

 

[ultrarunner]

...I wasn't real keen on it either...I'll be a commuter for many more years now)...

Hold on a minute now....I ain't that smart an all...ya know, being a whitey from the south...but what the heck in the age 65 legislation prohibits you moving to your base????

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

AA767
Quick question... if ICAO didnt really matter, how were ANY of the major airlines that have an international codeshare partner going to defend the position that it's safe to fly with a 60+ crew overseas, but not in the USA. I am not that familiar with AA, but do they have any international partners?
For the record, I was opposed to 65, but am not so shortsighted to believe it started or ended with SWAPA. Judging from your posts, I'd say there is enough hatred coming from you to spread it around a little more than just SWAPA...and by the way, the underlying jelousy is obvious.

LuckyDad,


US pilots we were in the driver’s seat until worn down by the relentless assault on Age 65 driven first by a small group of Southwest pilots, then SWAPA, and then after 911, were aided by the senior pilots of the bankrupt legacies going for a quick money grab that resulted in the ominous legislation last December. When ALPA collapsed on the issue without having a majority, the game was basically over.


The more senior SWAPA guys were able to basically pull one over on their junior pilots since the junior guys just never figured they would have to live under the dubious effects of the legislation. It was a rule many of their pilots figured that would negatively affect others and not themselves. How ironic that just six short months after the legislation passed that the junior Southwest pilots will start to feel the stinging effects of what their senior brethren just pulled on them.


Keep in mind, just because some foreign pilots are flying past 60 shouldn’t mean squat to the US especially when it’s in the name of safety. The US was never a follower for international rules. That was never even a valid part of the argument.


Make no mistake about it – AGE 65 was all about taking money from the junior guy to make up either for an inadequate retirement plan or medical (as was the case of the Southwest pilots), outside economic events, or the terrorist acts of 911. What the senior pilots couldn’t negotiate with the company, they ultimately took from the junior guy’s portion to make up for their lack of success.

Age 65 passed with lighting speed through the back channels of Congress. Ever wonder why that was?? What happened was that the US pilots just helped the US government (and ICAO) to further merge our group towards being a seamless global pilot. Ever hear of cabatage?? McCain is a big supporter of it. Now explain to me how even the mighty Southwest in 5-10 years will be able to compete with some foreign pilot that makes about ¼ of your salary who is flying point to point across the US from say Love to Lubbock to Phoenix. Just remember, all the US government really cares about is cheap tickets to the mass public. They could care less about your jobs.


Now add to the current mess of the massive downsizing that is going to occur throughout the industry over the next few years and perhaps you can understand why I’m not too happy with SWAPA. SWAPA was in a position to do much good for the profession over the last decade but basically blew it and now the window is slamming closed again. Many families will be destroyed over the next few years as the industry downsizes and pilots lose their jobs -- this will only be compounded by Age 65.


While your senior guys basically went for a money grab and were looking out for only themselves, you will find out it will be a long-term mess that will have to be handled by the junior troops.


Am I envious of Southwest? Perhaps only of their management team, but certainly not the actions of SWAPA. No doubt Southwest has a great company and a solid management team. It’s just very unfortunate their pilots didn’t do more with the advantage they had. Herb basically shut down the pilots again. For that alone, he and his management team deserve a lot of credit.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[ultrarunner]

I thought it started in Europe with ICAO changing the rules to allow age 65...

Ski, I don't know if it started with the ICAO change, but that essentially fueled the fire.

As I said a long time ago, I expected 65 to pass, since, at the time, I did not think capitol hill would continue to allow the BK courts to strip the pensions AND require an age 60 retirement.

Timing is everything.

Time to press on.

 

[StopNTSing]

Hold on a minute now....I ain't that smart an all...ya know, being a whitey from the south...but what the heck in the age 65 legislation prohibits you moving to your base????

I'll try to make this as simple as possible. I'm a junior captain. I live outside PHX. I can't hold it as a Captain, and I don't want to be a Lance Cpt in PHX (that's SWA-speak for Cpt-qualified FO), so I commute to LAS (much less senior base). Since the Luke Mafia took over PHX a few years ago, PHX is well on it's way to becoming the most senior base at SWA for Captains. Hence, the only movement for PHX captains is RETIREMENTS...which just got pushed out five more years.

Clear as mud?

 

[ultrarunner]

Got it Stop...I don't blame you for not wanting to move to LAS.

I wasn't up to speed on the Lance CPT deal. What's that? They call you in to fly CPT if they need you? But you bid FO?

Interesting.

 

[scoreboardII]

LuckyDad,


US pilots we were in the driver’s seat until worn down by the relentless assault on Age 65 driven first by a small group of Southwest pilots
AA767AV8TOR

Your hate is blinding you to the facts AA.

ICAO started in Chicago, prodded onto existence by the legacies, of which you are a willing participant.

Your statement that the US doesn't play by the rules is baseless, WE started ICAO, the US...

The push for 65 started a decade or more ago overseas to solve a pilot shortage, SWA had no part, SWAPA had no part. Your correct, a small minority in SWAPA did sell a package deal fraught with crap for their economic gains, BUT their/SWAPA impact on the situation was insignificant, as in ZERO effect to the end result, age 65 is here to stay. With or without input by SWAPA.

Why did the rule pass quickly? You show us the fact on that one... So far, your just spouting sour grapes.

 

[StopNTSing]

Got it Stop...I don't blame you for not wanting to move to LAS.

I wasn't up to speed on the Lance CPT deal. What's that? They call you in to fly CPT if they need you? But you bid FO?

Interesting.

Basically, the top 8% of FOs at each domicile are Lances. They are fully-qualified as captains, but bid and are awarded FO lines of flying each month. They can pick up any captain trips that will fit into their schedule (they obviously try to give away all their FO trips). Some guys love it....to me it always seemed more like putting yourself on reserve the whole month. But if you absolutely, positively do not want to commute, it is a viable alternative.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I also had one of you jumpseating a couple of weeks ago and he was telling us all about how your new-hire classes are now mostly made up of the over 60 guys coming back to work.

Boy...did you ever get hooked in on that one.

So far we have hired 9 ( or so) New Hire classes this year. All of them have had 20-24 New Hires in each class. Although lately, they have all had 24 since we are pretty short of pilots.

the only class ( =1) that was made up of the returning retirees had only 14 in the class. Around 24 or so were hired out of all the retirees that interviewed...and some of that 24 have already decided not to come back.

New Hire classes "mostly" made up of over age 60 guys? Sounds like you need some new information sources

 

[Tejas-Jet]

In your eyes I'm sure I'm just some punk kid, -->I don't believe I have ever referred to you or anyone else on FI as a "punk kid"but given your previous posts I could care less.--->Good, keep it that way. I've learned enough in my time to know that anyone that refers to themselves as from 'tejas' is a rod to be left alone at the bar regardless of a promise to buy a 'dollar' beer for you ...--->Waaaaahhhhhh...wa...wa..waaaaahhhhhhh

 

[LuckyDad]

AA767
Thanks for your reply, but it still does not answer my basic question. How could any US carrier with a code share partner in Europe claim that 60+ was unsafe in the US, yet safe for their codesharing connecting passengers abroad? Defend that, from a company position, and you have to draw the logical conclusion that it was not just the unions wooing the lawmakers, but the companies as well. To say that SWAPA influenced ICAO is a bit far fetched, yet the ramifications of the ICAO change had to impact the rules here, because to not legislate the same level of "safety" is indefensable. I think you need to get past the contempt you hold for SWA(PA), and look at ALL those who held the pen that porked us all.
Did SWAPA help, you bet, but there were many other players on the field, probably a lot more than you and I will ever know.
I agree, 65 is a crock. Believe me, as a 46 year old 5 airline twice furloughed 6+ year FO, I'm effected pretty harshly (though not as bad as the really jr guys -- but I am in their boat). I agree with much of what you have said. I am watching with some interest on how AA is gonna handle what I see is a tremendous PR problem. After being so verbous about how unsafe a 60+ year old is, how are they (AA) handling pilots that age flying for them now. It would seem to be a pretty easy turd to drop in the punchbowl.
Lastly, there are a number of European carriers, SAS stands out, that (despite the rule change), still expect their pilots to retire at 60. Like you said, I don't think a company can prevent a greedy bastard from hanging on, but certainly a company and union can negotiate to the expecation that a pilot can financially and should retire at 60. Too bad that'll never happen, but it makes it a lot easier to point the finger of blame back at our own respective unions, instead of blaming someone elses.
Dad

 

[bmxandjets]

AA767
Thanks for your reply, but it still does not answer my basic question. How could any US carrier with a code share partner in Europe claim that 60+ was unsafe in the US, yet safe for their codesharing connecting passengers abroad? Defend that, from a company position, and you have to draw the logical conclusion that it was not just the unions wooing the lawmakers, but the companies as well. To say that SWAPA influenced ICAO is a bit far fetched, yet the ramifications of the ICAO change had to impact the rules here, because to not legislate the same level of "safety" is indefensable. I think you need to get past the contempt you hold for SWA(PA), and look at ALL those who held the pen that porked us all.
Did SWAPA help, you bet, but there were many other players on the field, probably a lot more than you and I will ever know.
I agree, 65 is a crock. Believe me, as a 46 year old 5 airline twice furloughed 6+ year FO, I'm effected pretty harshly (though not as bad as the really jr guys -- but I am in their boat). I agree with much of what you have said. I am watching with some interest on how AA is gonna handle what I see is a tremendous PR problem. After being so verbous about how unsafe a 60+ year old is, how are they (AA) handling pilots that age flying for them now. It would seem to be a pretty easy turd to drop in the punchbowl.
Lastly, there are a number of European carriers, SAS stands out, that (despite the rule change), still expect their pilots to retire at 60. Like you said, I don't think a company can prevent a greedy bastard from hanging on, but certainly a company and union can negotiate to the expecation that a pilot can financially and should retire at 60. Too bad that'll never happen, but it makes it a lot easier to point the finger of blame back at our own respective unions, instead of blaming someone elses.
Dad

great question..

 

[Slow to .90 Mac]

Boy...did you ever get hooked in on that one.

So far we have hired 9 ( or so) New Hire classes this year. All of them have had 20-24 New Hires in each class. Although lately, they have all had 24 since we are pretty short of pilots.

the only class ( =1) that was made up of the returning retirees had only 14 in the class. Around 24 or so were hired out of all the retirees that interviewed...and some of that 24 have already decided not to come back.

New Hire classes "mostly" made up of over age 60 guys? Sounds like you need some new information sources

Speaking of newhire classes.....

From the SWA People Dept yesterday.....as of right now, one to two newhire classes every month for the rest of the year.

 

[canyonblue]

Make no mistake about it – AGE 65 was all about taking money from the junior guy to make up either for an inadequate retirement plan or medical (as was the case of the Southwest pilots), outside economic events, or the terrorist acts of 911. What the senior pilots couldn’t negotiate with the company, they ultimately took from the junior guy’s portion to make up for their lack of success.

AA767AV8TOR

Ok Ace, then explain to me how a pilot at The All Great and Fabulous American Airlines cannot afford to leave at age 60? With your far superior retirement and medical plans, I wouldn't even think this was a problem at good old AA. In fact the MAJORITY of AA pilots OPPOSED age 65, exactly how many are staying, and why?

 

[ultrarunner]

A friend of mine bolted from AA, along with a dozen or so a few months ago. My friend was 55, and only one or so was 60.