LR60 Crash KCAE: Another Angle

[NYG-Flyer]

This is a very good discussion.. I don't necessary agree with everyone but I very happy to see that its on everyone's mind and the fact that its being discussed my very well save a life.

In August of 2006, I was departing from amarillo in a Lear 31A. We had new tires that had 12 landings on them. we had been on the ground since landing at AMA for 1 hr. We departed as normal, I was the PM, I called out the usual calls, upon, 100-105 kts (I believe V1 was 112) we heard what was unmistakeably the sound of a tire blowing ( louder than you would think). the airplane immediately moved off to the left side of the rwy centerline, The PF applied rudder to get the airplane back on centerline when the Second Right main tire blew, sending us back to the left violently. ( obviously we had little directional control... a key point to an abort) so the PF aborted...stated this outloud... throttles idle, spoilers, TR's...he immediately made it known to me that he was having trouble keeping it on the runway as he slowed the airplane..I called out his speeds as it was slowing...While doing this I radioed to Tower we had a blown tire and were aborting.( i will explain why this may be important) .after I called out 50 kts.. the Two Left mains blew almost at the exact time and we were immediately pulled off the runway to the left perpendicular to the runway... our tornup wheels dug into the grass and we came to rest 35 ft from the side of the RWY. The Rwy is 13000ft long and we took from start to finish 10600 ft... ( it was supposed to be balanced at about 3800 ft).. as soon as the plane stopped we did as we were trained and immediately exited the airplane getting the pax off etc.. shutdown.. etc.. By the time I had opened the door to the airplane the emergency crews , including 3 fire trucks had surrounded the airplane..Now for my reasoning on the radio call..We were obviously lucky in alot of respects.. but the one that was most important to me was the fact that we had no idea if the wheels and brakes ( magnesium) had heated up to starting a fire.. located directly under the wing ( fuel) that was a major thought.. having the FD arrive so quickly was imperative for this reason as well as, what if we hit something and it didn't end as well as it did.. you may think 20 seconds isn't much this type of situation it may very well be a life. a simple radio call from the PM, cannot hurt and in my opinion it helped. I believe the tower wasn't even aware we had the problem until i radioed and it may have taken them another 2-3 minutes to figure it out and then call rescue. I will tell you this, we are trained to abort for loss of directional control..but again the circumstances have to work to abort.. I know if we were on a 6000ft rwy, the PF would have kept going as best he could and we would have taken off if at all possible... Training doesn't account for every scenario, it preps us for judgement and gives us a basis or a control to work from. I Brief blown tires on my takeoff's.. and what I expect from the PM..

Keep the discussion going .. I like to have other perspectives in which to learn from.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Until a clear path is shown, thats what I think happened.

Try this link below:

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/stadium.weblogsinc.com/tmz/images/2008/09/_0000s_0009_Layer_5_full.jpg

Seem strange? I think so. Looks like the localizer antenna is just sitting there, not like it had been plowed over. If the gear were intact, the wings may have just sheared them off like that.

 

[Fly91]

This is a very good discussion.. I don't necessary agree with everyone but I very happy to see that its on everyone's mind and the fact that its being discussed my very well save a life.

In August of 2006, I was departing from amarillo in a Lear 31A. We had new tires that had 12 landings on them. we had been on the ground since landing at AMA for 1 hr. We departed as normal, I was the PM, I called out the usual calls, upon, 100-105 kts (I believe V1 was 112) we heard what was unmistakeably the sound of a tire blowing ( louder than you would think). the airplane immediately moved off to the left side of the rwy centerline, The PF applied rudder to get the airplane back on centerline when the Second Right main tire blew, sending us back to the left violently. ( obviously we had little directional control... a key point to an abort) so the PF aborted...stated this outloud... throttles idle, spoilers, TR's...he immediately made it known to me that he was having trouble keeping it on the runway as he slowed the airplane..I called out his speeds as it was slowing...While doing this I radioed to Tower we had a blown tire and were aborting.( i will explain why this may be important) .after I called out 50 kts.. the Two Left mains blew almost at the exact time and we were immediately pulled off the runway to the left perpendicular to the runway... our tornup wheels dug into the grass and we came to rest 35 ft from the side of the RWY. The Rwy is 13000ft long and we took from start to finish 10600 ft... ( it was supposed to be balanced at about 3800 ft).. as soon as the plane stopped we did as we were trained and immediately exited the airplane getting the pax off etc.. shutdown.. etc.. By the time I had opened the door to the airplane the emergency crews , including 3 fire trucks had surrounded the airplane..Now for my reasoning on the radio call..We were obviously lucky in alot of respects.. but the one that was most important to me was the fact that we had no idea if the wheels and brakes ( magnesium) had heated up to starting a fire.. located directly under the wing ( fuel) that was a major thought.. having the FD arrive so quickly was imperative for this reason as well as, what if we hit something and it didn't end as well as it did.. you may think 20 seconds isn't much this type of situation it may very well be a life. a simple radio call from the PM, cannot hurt and in my opinion it helped. I believe the tower wasn't even aware we had the problem until i radioed and it may have taken them another 2-3 minutes to figure it out and then call rescue. I will tell you this, we are trained to abort for loss of directional control..but again the circumstances have to work to abort.. I know if we were on a 6000ft rwy, the PF would have kept going as best he could and we would have taken off if at all possible... Training doesn't account for every scenario, it preps us for judgement and gives us a basis or a control to work from. I Brief blown tires on my takeoff's.. and what I expect from the PM..

Keep the discussion going .. I like to have other perspectives in which to learn from.

Thats an exact reason where a radio call has its place.

Its also a good example that a plane DOES NOT track perfectly straight down a runway like "DAYTONAFLYER" has outlined they do when both tires blow on one side. Thats crazy to think just because a plane stayed straight somewhere once that it happens always to all planes. Flying is way too dynamic to see one thing and associate it with every other plane and incident.

You making the radio call was the smartest decision and nobody can argue that. You were doing nothing but waiting for the plane to stop. You couldn't help the PF. You did your job, period. If you didn't make the call and a fire did start and there was a loss of life or loss of the plane due to a fire having started under a wing.....you would be an outcast and they would all be going after you for NOT making the call.

So really, who cares what any sim school teaches you, or what any chief pilot or captain tells you to do. Make the smart decisions on your own, after all its your life sitting in that flying gas tank. Flying and making your own calls has alot to do with covering your own azz too.

 

[Fly91]

Try this link below:

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/stadium.weblogsinc.com/tmz/images/2008/09/_0000s_0009_Layer_5_full.jpg

Seem strange? I think so. Looks like the localizer antenna is just sitting there, not like it had been plowed over. If the gear were intact, the wings may have just sheared them off like that.

Actually it looks like there are more antenna posts on the left of the picture than on the right side.?????

 

[Fly91]

NYG-Flyer,

Kind of supports your situation at the end of the story.
When I was a flight instructor I watched a Lear 55 get cleared for take-off while it was taxiing up to the hold line. I was sitting in line on the other side like #2 for take-off in a Warrior. The Lear never stopped its taxi and went right out on the runway for take-off.

We all watched it accelerate to about the 1,000 ft. mark (maybe 80 kts or so) when the tower called the aircraft and said they had a flame coming from the right gear. We all looked and saw the flame. The pilot immediately got on the brakes and the plane darted off the runway in the blink of an eye to the left and slammed into a little ditch. Grass and sand flew up in the air in a huge cloud. About 5 seconds later the door opens up and one of the pilot gets out and looks at the right main gear and you can see he was pissed.

What happened was, they taxied out of World Jet at FXE and taxied all the way to the other side of the airport to take off on runway 8. They had the parking brake on and for whatever reason it was much tighter on the right brakes. There was an intermittant black mark from the FBO to the runway. The tire was locking up and unlocking all the way overheating the brakes all the way to the runway. When they aborted and hit the brakes the right brakes were so hot they were useless, but the left brakes were fresh, so off the runway they went. It was so fast and violent there was no way anyone could have brought it back.

The fire trucks didn't get there for at least 2-3 minutes. If that gear had kept burning the plane probably would have been lost or heavily damaged. They obviously didn't have to make a radio call because the tower saw everything and made the call to the FD for them.

In a bad abort like yours or any abort where you think you might leave the runway at any speed, the trucks need to roll ASAP.

 

[NYG-Flyer]

I appreciate the support. I think my point is you never know and therefore make those decisions based are your situation. Each incident creates a learning experience that hopefully we take something with us.

When the FAA came out to inspect the situation, there first question was how long were we on the ground before we departed again? Once they saw we had been on the ground 45 mins (at least) they then moved on to the possibility of FOD. Be aware that quick turns may contribute to these anomalies.

 

[Club ORD FO]

You guys are assuming too much. Maybe they lost directional control after the tire blew. You have no idea so you have no right to say "why did they abort in the high speed regime"

disrespectful in my opinion

 

[filejw]

It is the job of the PM to advise of the abort ONLY when the situation is under control, i.e. no more speed callouts or runway remaining callouts are necessary. I've aborted a couple of times and did not advise tower until we began the turn off the runway. It goes back to the old adage of aviate, navigate, communicate. That applies to two-pilot crews as well.

We have no calls in this situation.Just make sure the a/c is being flown and then call the tower as briefed.

 

[ultrarunner]

The tendency to resist taking into the air is quite strong, and can only be overcome by training and experience.

NEVER attempt to stop anywhere NEAR V1 unless you can absolutely, positively ascertain that the airplane cannot remain airborne and safely return.

Airlines use reduced-decision speeds for a reason...

Food for thought

 

[ableone]

Most airlines require the PM to make a radio call as soon as the PF calls "Reject."

A successful RTO is useless, especially at night, if the tower does not know you aborted and someone is cleared to TO behind you.

As far as taking off with a blown tire. If you do it certainly don't retract the gear.

Especially at high weights when one tire goes it overloads the other tires on the bogie and they heat up.

Remember the charter DC-8 out of Saudi? A couple of tires blew on a main, the other tires overheated and after gear retraction they started a fire that spread to the CTR fuel tank.

The fire moved fast. The crew tried to return to the airport but the airframe came apart on final. It had been dropping parts, including pax seats from the CTR section, since the downwind leg.

 

[ableone]

Instead of focusing on the problem at hand, and a big problem it was, one of the pilots is jaw-jacking on the radio? What do you think the pilot telling the tower what was clear and obvious ultimately costs him/her? I just don't agree with the line of thought where someone gets on the radio where, quite frankly, their help and attention is needed elsewhere. In the sim, during a V1 cut, when the plane is still on the runway looking for Vr, are you on the radio before you get airborne?

I landed an 800XP in MSP a few winters ago on a contaminated runway with a X-Wind, and as soon as I got the nose wheel on, the plane immediately cocked into the wind, but it was tracking right down the centerline; essentially, the airplane was 10 or 20 degrees sideways, but it was stable and tracking straight. Non-Event.

I wrongly assumed the F/O, as a professional courtesy, would give me airspeed call outs as we slowed while I focused on the outside and played the rudder pedals like a Mozart crescendo. Stupid Me; she immediately jumps on the radio telling the tower we were losing control of the aircraft and to standby for her call to roll the equipment. WTF? Nit-wit, shut it and get over here and get back to work is what I wanted to tell her. She had no business on the radio at that point when her skill and expertise was more benificial to the situation at hand instead of talking on the radio. I feel the same way about the CAE accident crew. Do you see where I am coming from?

I think your FO was on the ball and you were not. What good are airspeed call outs while decelerating on a runway? Are you going to use the brakes or rudders differently? I could understand your ire if you had asked her to do something specific, (i.e. kill the antiskid, deploy the chute, shut down engines, etc.) but you were upset that she did not read your mind and give you useless callouts.

 

[LRvsH25B]

I think your FO was on the ball and you were not. What good are airspeed call outs while decelerating on a runway? Are you going to use the brakes or rudders differently? I could understand your ire if you had asked her to do something specific, (i.e. kill the antiskid, deploy the chute, shut down engines, etc.) but you were upset that she did not read your mind and give you useless callouts.

Are you kidding me? Ashton Kutcher, come out! I'm being punked. Where are you Ashton?

If I have 1000 feet of runway left and I am not stopped, I am probably going to do 2 different things if I am 50 knots as opposed to if I am at 10 knots. As I said, the runway was contaminated. A crosswind does not weathervane the airplane on a runway that is a little wet or has a light dusting of snow on it. Either way, I ALWAYS want to hear airspeed call outs on the deceleration for several reasons right down to the Idle speed limitation of the T/Rs.

To answer your question, yes, I am certainly going to use the brakes or rudders differently depending on my speed. There comes a point where the rudder looses it's authority, so at that point, I'll know what I have and will depend more on the T/Rs for directional control IF I need to do that at this point of the roll out. I could go on, but I think you understand. I really should not have to be telling a person with your quals and types these simply types of operation techniques. F/O was a good F/O, but dead wrong on this day.

 

[SDCFI]

I think your FO was on the ball and you were not. What good are airspeed call outs while decelerating on a runway? Are you going to use the brakes or rudders differently? I could understand your ire if you had asked her to do something specific, (i.e. kill the antiskid, deploy the chute, shut down engines, etc.) but you were upset that she did not read your mind and give you useless callouts.

Hawkers have tillers don't they? Because if your plane has a tiller you very much want to know your airspeed on rollout so you know when to transition from rudder steering to the tiller. Also tells you when to start reducing your reverse according to the flight manual limitations, although in this case with weathervaning on a contaminated rwy you shouldn't be in reverse anyway.

 

[Fly91]

You guys are assuming too much. Maybe they lost directional control after the tire blew. You have no idea so you have no right to say "why did they abort in the high speed regime"

disrespectful in my opinion

Everyone stop posting and lets all wait for the final reports in a couple months and just go with that report.

Respect.....what does respect have to do with anything? This is free experience for everyone who reads this, offers opinions or life experiences or who tells what they think took place.

Logic and common sense usually figures out exactly what happened in accidents WAY before the final report comes out. Ane we learn alot along the way.

The crew is gone, thats a tragedy, but thats also aviation. Lets move on and chat so this doesn't happen again.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Not disrespectful in my opinion...a good learning experience for all which might help in the future if we're ever in a similar situation.
Of course we are sorry for the loss of life, but talking about it might prevent further loss in the future.

 

[SLUF4]

I think this accident demonstrates the benefit of having EMAS at the end of all runways used by jets. I know this would be expensive, but wouldn't you like to know that you would be stopping before you hit anything or skipped across a ditch (assuming you can keep directional control)? If you don't know what EMAS is, check it out
http://www.esco.zodiac.com/index.cfm/navid-43

Glad they got it at CRW finally. Now I'm not as scared about flying off that cliff at the end of the runway.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

It is the job of the PM to advise of the abort ONLY when the situation is under control, i.e. no more speed callouts or runway remaining callouts are necessary. I've aborted a couple of times and did not advise tower until we began the turn off the runway. It goes back to the old adage of aviate, navigate, communicate. That applies to two-pilot crews as well.

Our procedure is when an abort is called, the captain does the abort and he has briefed the fo to advise the tower of the abort, then, not after making the turn-off. This does several things. Lets local know that there is a problem and he/she might need to either cancel a landing clearance or possibly a takeoff clearance. As a controller I have had to do both. I had a Hawker abort on 9L in PBI years ago. I had a Delta 727 in position and a Eastern 9 on final, they didn't say anthing until almost stopped. I asked if there was a problem and they said they felt a bump and that they had aborted. I sent the 9 around and asked if they needed assistance, they said they didn't think so. I put the binoculars on them and it looked to me that the right side gear looked a little funny. I called out the airport ops vehicle to do a runway inspection and there was tire debris all over the runway. I put Delta back on the Taxiway and told TRACON 9L was closed for a bit. Point being I had to ask and if I had went ahead and cleared Delta for takeoff there could have been a major problem. It lets local know that there may/may not be a problem with the aircraft in question. IE he/she might have to pull the crash phone.
I have heard several different ways of the actual transmission, "tower, so and so is aborting', "tower so and so is discontinuing our takeoff roll". When that happens the tower knows immediately there is something wrong, either seriously or not. It puts them in the position to alert who is needed. Waiting until you have slowed and turned off the runway is too late. The controller does not have their eyes pinned on your aircraft from the time he says "cleared for takeoff" until he sends your to dept. There are alot of things going on up there also. NOT saying they just clear you for takeoff and don't look out the window, far from it.
NTG-Flyer is correct. DO NOT DELAY advising the tower.

 

[SLUF4]

Our procedure is when an abort is called, the captain does the abort and he has briefed the fo to advise the tower of the abort, then, not after making the turn-off. This does several things. Lets local know that there is a problem and he/she might need to either cancel a landing clearance or possibly a takeoff clearance. As a controller I have had to do both. I had a Hawker abort on 9L in PBI years ago. I had a Delta 727 in position and a Eastern 9 on final, they didn't say anthing until almost stopped. I asked if there was a problem and they said they felt a bump and that they had aborted. I sent the 9 around and asked if they needed assistance, they said they didn't think so. I put the binoculars on them and it looked to me that the right side gear looked a little funny. I called out the airport ops vehicle to do a runway inspection and there was tire debris all over the runway. I put Delta back on the Taxiway and told TRACON 9L was closed for a bit. Point being I had to ask and if I had went ahead and cleared Delta for takeoff there could have been a major problem. It lets local know that there may/may not be a problem with the aircraft in question. IE he/she might have to pull the crash phone.
I have heard several different ways of the actual transmission, "tower, so and so is aborting', "tower so and so is discontinuing our takeoff roll". When that happens the tower knows immediately there is something wrong, either seriously or not. It puts them in the position to alert who is needed. Waiting until you have slowed and turned off the runway is too late. The controller does not have their eyes pinned on your aircraft from the time he says "cleared for takeoff" until he sends your to dept. There are alot of things going on up there also. NOT saying they just clear you for takeoff and don't look out the window, far from it.
NTG-Flyer is correct. DO NOT DELAY advising the tower.

I agree-especially at a very busy airport where they sometimes clear the next guy for takeoff as you are nearing rotation speed.

 

[Quimby]

Our procedure is when an abort is called, the captain does the abort and he has briefed the fo to advise the tower of the abort, then, not after making the turn-off. This does several things. Lets local know that there is a problem and he/she might need to either cancel a landing clearance or possibly a takeoff clearance. As a controller I have had to do both. I had a Hawker abort on 9L in PBI years ago. I had a Delta 727 in position and a Eastern 9 on final, they didn't say anthing until almost stopped. I asked if there was a problem and they said they felt a bump and that they had aborted. I sent the 9 around and asked if they needed assistance, they said they didn't think so. I put the binoculars on them and it looked to me that the right side gear looked a little funny. I called out the airport ops vehicle to do a runway inspection and there was tire debris all over the runway. I put Delta back on the Taxiway and told TRACON 9L was closed for a bit. Point being I had to ask and if I had went ahead and cleared Delta for takeoff there could have been a major problem. It lets local know that there may/may not be a problem with the aircraft in question. IE he/she might have to pull the crash phone.
I have heard several different ways of the actual transmission, "tower, so and so is aborting', "tower so and so is discontinuing our takeoff roll". When that happens the tower knows immediately there is something wrong, either seriously or not. It puts them in the position to alert who is needed. Waiting until you have slowed and turned off the runway is too late. The controller does not have their eyes pinned on your aircraft from the time he says "cleared for takeoff" until he sends your to dept. There are alot of things going on up there also. NOT saying they just clear you for takeoff and don't look out the window, far from it.
NTG-Flyer is correct. DO NOT DELAY advising the tower.

This is especially important in low vis ops.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Haven't heard the tapes or followed too closely with investigation into the accident: but

I see absolutely no problem with advising tower of an abort... Of course there is no right or wrong answer here.... maybe the PM felt they had a second to let tower know, then crap hit the fan. Maybe it was a gut reaction.. either way the loss of directional control was surely not lost because of radio call. For those that say "it is my personal technique to call only when clear of the runway" I call BS.. Unless you've ever been at 80+, then had a tire blow, then lost control and were fearing for your life you'll never know what your personal technique is.. (for the record I've never been in this situation)

To the guy that ended up nearly sideways down a contaminated runway... If the guy I'm flying with ends up heading down the runway sideways, on a contaminated runway, my a.ss may pucker a bit too. On a contaminated runway things could have gotten a whole lot worse in a hurry.. would you rather your PM wait til you've gone off the side of the runway to make the call....again a gut call, maybe she freaked a bit but don't fault her for it.. I got a feeling your ego may have been bruised because she may have brought negative attention to you..

Threads like this, although started for good intentions, rarely end up being more than a "why did they do that, I would have done it this way" conversation. Bottom line is you do what you do in an emergency that you feel best suites you to stay alive. Nobody on this thread has the right to say they did anything wrong. (unless the NTSB determines otherwise). None of us has really been in this exact situation because for one we're all still here talking about it.

Almost definitely they may have made some less than rational decisions, but I don't think that in those maybe 5 seconds after crap hit the fan, they were worried one bit about when to make a radio call, or that they lost a squat switch and the TR's didn't work etc...This definitely wasn't a run of the mill abort...and it wasn't in a simulator. ( I had a sim partner abort at 100kts for an anti-skid inop caution on a contaminated runway at 53K. we did a complete 360 and stayed on the runway. I may have said "this sucks" about halfway around. I am positive my reaction would have been different in real life.)

BTW.. 121 definitely has more strict SOP usage than 91/135. Mesa just sucks.