LR60 Crash KCAE: Another Angle

[Daytonaflyer]

I think they were airborne, I don't see how they could have kept it that straight with TWO blown tires and metal grinding into the ground making sparks. If there was no radio call, the crew may have started an abort, the other tire then blew and the tower probably saw the sparks, then the crew changed their mind to go after they lost the other tire and realized they knew they could not stop by the end. The plane would limp into the air, then settle back down, especially that damn heavy.

Speculation of course.....but I want to see the runway after the spraks started and the path through the grass to the resting position. I saw nothing on that video.

This is actually a common misconception. When metal contacts the runway at high speed (like with a blown tire or a single main gear failure) there is actually less friction then when a tire contacts the runway. Metal is not a good conductor of friction. This loss in friction causes the object to continue tracking in the direction that it is going, not jerk to one side like most think would happen.
This is often seen in videos where an airplane lands with one main gear up and it is forced to skid along on the engine cowl. The airplane generally continues a straight forward track and is somewhat controllable.
Only when the airplane slows down does the friction of the metal surface contact increase and overcome that of the tire, which often causes it to turn at low speed.
I think it would have to be something more than just a blown tire to cause it to slide off the runway. Exceeding the VMCg limitation comes to mind.

Here is a video of a 737 landing with a collapsed main gear. You can see it continues to track forward in a straight line until at slow speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnGgMSCpu2A

 

[DAS at 10/250]

You may be correct in your assumption about what the PM stated to the tower. At this point it is all speculation and I am not hear to second guess the crew and the decisions they made. I hope to never face what they did on that fateful day.

I stand by my personal procedure of not communicating until the situation is under control and the PF directs me to talk to ATC. The reason for this is because if I take the 1-2 seconds to transmit to ATC, it may be the same 1-2 seconds the PF tells me something critical and I miss what he/she said. In a takeoff situation or some other critical situation, that 1-2 seconds may be the difference between flying, stopping, or crashing.

All that said, I still don't think aborting for a blown tire is a good decision, especially in a Lear 60. One blown tire on any airplane already reduces brake effectivness. Furthermore, in the 60 a blown tire followed by an abort will most likely yield more blown tires resulting in less braking ability. As stated before, this is due to the anti-skid system on the aircraft. I would much rather be in the air with a blown tire on fire knowing I can make a quick return to the airport than risk aborting and not stopping on the available runway.

Starcheck:

I agree with you 110%. Talking on the radio to someone who can't do a dang thing about the aircraft that my 6 is strapped into is the least of my concerns.

 

[Fly91]

This is actually a common misconception. When metal contacts the runway at high speed (like with a blown tire or a single main gear failure) there is actually less friction then when a tire contacts the runway. Metal is not a good conductor of friction. This loss in friction causes the object to continue tracking in the direction that it is going, not jerk to one side like most think would happen.
This is often seen in videos where an airplane lands with one main gear up and it is forced to skid along on the engine cowl. The airplane generally continues a straight forward track and is somewhat controllable.
Only when the airplane slows down does the friction of the metal surface contact increase and overcome that of the tire, which often causes it to turn at low speed.
I think it would have to be something more than just a blown tire to cause it to slide off the runway. Exceeding the VMCg limitation comes to mind.

Here is a video of a 737 landing with a collapsed main gear. You can see it continues to track forward in a straight line until at slow speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnGgMSCpu2A

But if both RIGHT main gear tires are lost, and the brakes are just depressed somewhat strong and not full force.....That plane is going to immediately pull like a freight train towards the LEFT because of the full traction the left tires are getting with the pavement. Also, at 80 kts, there's still a ton of weight bearing down on the main gear in the LR 60 at that heavy take-off weight. The sparks tell me that there was still alot of weight on them. I could see if they were closer to V1 and alot more weight was taken off the main gear from increasing lift, that metal touching the pavement would not have much effect, including the increased rudder effectiveness from that increased speed helping out.

But back to the point of my post, which has nothing to do with a debate about friction of metal on pavement.....there is no path that I can see from the end of the runway to where the plane stopped. And there are antennas all the way to that road that are untouched.

It looks like the plane was airborne before impact.

I think the abort was attempted very briefly, the pilot could not keep it on the runway from the braking required and the rudder didn't have enough authority to help enough, coupled with the end of the runway coming. Then the pilot decided to take-off, and well, that didn't work either.

Until a clear path is shown, thats what I think happened.

 

[LJPilot]

I wouldn't call during an abort, but I'll defend it. He may of wanted to get tower's attention to the problem at hand. Tower can do something about it. They can get rescue vehicles heading their way. Remember in the Lexington Comair crash that the tower did not see what happened. In the midst of doing everything possible, he took 2 seconds to alert tower.

 

[Fly91]

I wouldn't call during an abort, but I'll defend it. He may of wanted to get tower's attention to the problem at hand. Tower can do something about it. They can get rescue vehicles heading their way. Remember in the Lexington Comair crash that the tower did not see what happened. In the midst of doing everything possible, he took 2 seconds to alert tower.

This whole debate on whether to call or not is really just dependant on about a million things. Making the call certainly has its place and should be briefed depending on the situation at the time of take-off. If you're told to make an immediate departure because you have another jet on short final and the abort is at slow speed, make the call, give everyone involved a heads up. If you're aborting because you have smoke pouring into the cockpit at 80 kts, you better get the trucks rolling and let the PF stop the plane. Not making that call immediately could mean your life. Only one pilot can do the AVIATING and NAVIGATING, an abort is a visual event. So why not COMMUNICATE while the PNF is doing nothing....but still it depends on whats going on. I'm sure if the plane is agressively going off the runway at 80 kts, neither pilots' brain is going to think about a radio call.

Crews choice...there is no right and wrong.

 

[NYG-Flyer]

This is a very good discussion.. I don't necessary agree with everyone but I very happy to see that its on everyone's mind and the fact that its being discussed my very well save a life.

In August of 2006, I was departing from amarillo in a Lear 31A. We had new tires that had 12 landings on them. we had been on the ground since landing at AMA for 1 hr. We departed as normal, I was the PM, I called out the usual calls, upon, 100-105 kts (I believe V1 was 112) we heard what was unmistakeably the sound of a tire blowing ( louder than you would think). the airplane immediately moved off to the left side of the rwy centerline, The PF applied rudder to get the airplane back on centerline when the Second Right main tire blew, sending us back to the left violently. ( obviously we had little directional control... a key point to an abort) so the PF aborted...stated this outloud... throttles idle, spoilers, TR's...he immediately made it known to me that he was having trouble keeping it on the runway as he slowed the airplane..I called out his speeds as it was slowing...While doing this I radioed to Tower we had a blown tire and were aborting.( i will explain why this may be important) .after I called out 50 kts.. the Two Left mains blew almost at the exact time and we were immediately pulled off the runway to the left perpendicular to the runway... our tornup wheels dug into the grass and we came to rest 35 ft from the side of the RWY. The Rwy is 13000ft long and we took from start to finish 10600 ft... ( it was supposed to be balanced at about 3800 ft).. as soon as the plane stopped we did as we were trained and immediately exited the airplane getting the pax off etc.. shutdown.. etc.. By the time I had opened the door to the airplane the emergency crews , including 3 fire trucks had surrounded the airplane..Now for my reasoning on the radio call..We were obviously lucky in alot of respects.. but the one that was most important to me was the fact that we had no idea if the wheels and brakes ( magnesium) had heated up to starting a fire.. located directly under the wing ( fuel) that was a major thought.. having the FD arrive so quickly was imperative for this reason as well as, what if we hit something and it didn't end as well as it did.. you may think 20 seconds isn't much this type of situation it may very well be a life. a simple radio call from the PM, cannot hurt and in my opinion it helped. I believe the tower wasn't even aware we had the problem until i radioed and it may have taken them another 2-3 minutes to figure it out and then call rescue. I will tell you this, we are trained to abort for loss of directional control..but again the circumstances have to work to abort.. I know if we were on a 6000ft rwy, the PF would have kept going as best he could and we would have taken off if at all possible... Training doesn't account for every scenario, it preps us for judgement and gives us a basis or a control to work from. I Brief blown tires on my takeoff's.. and what I expect from the PM..

Keep the discussion going .. I like to have other perspectives in which to learn from.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Until a clear path is shown, thats what I think happened.

Try this link below:

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/stadium.weblogsinc.com/tmz/images/2008/09/_0000s_0009_Layer_5_full.jpg

Seem strange? I think so. Looks like the localizer antenna is just sitting there, not like it had been plowed over. If the gear were intact, the wings may have just sheared them off like that.

 

[Fly91]

This is a very good discussion.. I don't necessary agree with everyone but I very happy to see that its on everyone's mind and the fact that its being discussed my very well save a life.

In August of 2006, I was departing from amarillo in a Lear 31A. We had new tires that had 12 landings on them. we had been on the ground since landing at AMA for 1 hr. We departed as normal, I was the PM, I called out the usual calls, upon, 100-105 kts (I believe V1 was 112) we heard what was unmistakeably the sound of a tire blowing ( louder than you would think). the airplane immediately moved off to the left side of the rwy centerline, The PF applied rudder to get the airplane back on centerline when the Second Right main tire blew, sending us back to the left violently. ( obviously we had little directional control... a key point to an abort) so the PF aborted...stated this outloud... throttles idle, spoilers, TR's...he immediately made it known to me that he was having trouble keeping it on the runway as he slowed the airplane..I called out his speeds as it was slowing...While doing this I radioed to Tower we had a blown tire and were aborting.( i will explain why this may be important) .after I called out 50 kts.. the Two Left mains blew almost at the exact time and we were immediately pulled off the runway to the left perpendicular to the runway... our tornup wheels dug into the grass and we came to rest 35 ft from the side of the RWY. The Rwy is 13000ft long and we took from start to finish 10600 ft... ( it was supposed to be balanced at about 3800 ft).. as soon as the plane stopped we did as we were trained and immediately exited the airplane getting the pax off etc.. shutdown.. etc.. By the time I had opened the door to the airplane the emergency crews , including 3 fire trucks had surrounded the airplane..Now for my reasoning on the radio call..We were obviously lucky in alot of respects.. but the one that was most important to me was the fact that we had no idea if the wheels and brakes ( magnesium) had heated up to starting a fire.. located directly under the wing ( fuel) that was a major thought.. having the FD arrive so quickly was imperative for this reason as well as, what if we hit something and it didn't end as well as it did.. you may think 20 seconds isn't much this type of situation it may very well be a life. a simple radio call from the PM, cannot hurt and in my opinion it helped. I believe the tower wasn't even aware we had the problem until i radioed and it may have taken them another 2-3 minutes to figure it out and then call rescue. I will tell you this, we are trained to abort for loss of directional control..but again the circumstances have to work to abort.. I know if we were on a 6000ft rwy, the PF would have kept going as best he could and we would have taken off if at all possible... Training doesn't account for every scenario, it preps us for judgement and gives us a basis or a control to work from. I Brief blown tires on my takeoff's.. and what I expect from the PM..

Keep the discussion going .. I like to have other perspectives in which to learn from.

Thats an exact reason where a radio call has its place.

Its also a good example that a plane DOES NOT track perfectly straight down a runway like "DAYTONAFLYER" has outlined they do when both tires blow on one side. Thats crazy to think just because a plane stayed straight somewhere once that it happens always to all planes. Flying is way too dynamic to see one thing and associate it with every other plane and incident.

You making the radio call was the smartest decision and nobody can argue that. You were doing nothing but waiting for the plane to stop. You couldn't help the PF. You did your job, period. If you didn't make the call and a fire did start and there was a loss of life or loss of the plane due to a fire having started under a wing.....you would be an outcast and they would all be going after you for NOT making the call.

So really, who cares what any sim school teaches you, or what any chief pilot or captain tells you to do. Make the smart decisions on your own, after all its your life sitting in that flying gas tank. Flying and making your own calls has alot to do with covering your own azz too.

 

[Fly91]

Try this link below:

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/stadium.weblogsinc.com/tmz/images/2008/09/_0000s_0009_Layer_5_full.jpg

Seem strange? I think so. Looks like the localizer antenna is just sitting there, not like it had been plowed over. If the gear were intact, the wings may have just sheared them off like that.

Actually it looks like there are more antenna posts on the left of the picture than on the right side.?????

 

[Fly91]

NYG-Flyer,

Kind of supports your situation at the end of the story.
When I was a flight instructor I watched a Lear 55 get cleared for take-off while it was taxiing up to the hold line. I was sitting in line on the other side like #2 for take-off in a Warrior. The Lear never stopped its taxi and went right out on the runway for take-off.

We all watched it accelerate to about the 1,000 ft. mark (maybe 80 kts or so) when the tower called the aircraft and said they had a flame coming from the right gear. We all looked and saw the flame. The pilot immediately got on the brakes and the plane darted off the runway in the blink of an eye to the left and slammed into a little ditch. Grass and sand flew up in the air in a huge cloud. About 5 seconds later the door opens up and one of the pilot gets out and looks at the right main gear and you can see he was pissed.

What happened was, they taxied out of World Jet at FXE and taxied all the way to the other side of the airport to take off on runway 8. They had the parking brake on and for whatever reason it was much tighter on the right brakes. There was an intermittant black mark from the FBO to the runway. The tire was locking up and unlocking all the way overheating the brakes all the way to the runway. When they aborted and hit the brakes the right brakes were so hot they were useless, but the left brakes were fresh, so off the runway they went. It was so fast and violent there was no way anyone could have brought it back.

The fire trucks didn't get there for at least 2-3 minutes. If that gear had kept burning the plane probably would have been lost or heavily damaged. They obviously didn't have to make a radio call because the tower saw everything and made the call to the FD for them.

In a bad abort like yours or any abort where you think you might leave the runway at any speed, the trucks need to roll ASAP.

 

[NYG-Flyer]

I appreciate the support. I think my point is you never know and therefore make those decisions based are your situation. Each incident creates a learning experience that hopefully we take something with us.

When the FAA came out to inspect the situation, there first question was how long were we on the ground before we departed again? Once they saw we had been on the ground 45 mins (at least) they then moved on to the possibility of FOD. Be aware that quick turns may contribute to these anomalies.

 

[Club ORD FO]

You guys are assuming too much. Maybe they lost directional control after the tire blew. You have no idea so you have no right to say "why did they abort in the high speed regime"

disrespectful in my opinion

 

[filejw]

It is the job of the PM to advise of the abort ONLY when the situation is under control, i.e. no more speed callouts or runway remaining callouts are necessary. I've aborted a couple of times and did not advise tower until we began the turn off the runway. It goes back to the old adage of aviate, navigate, communicate. That applies to two-pilot crews as well.

We have no calls in this situation.Just make sure the a/c is being flown and then call the tower as briefed.

 

[ultrarunner]

The tendency to resist taking into the air is quite strong, and can only be overcome by training and experience.

NEVER attempt to stop anywhere NEAR V1 unless you can absolutely, positively ascertain that the airplane cannot remain airborne and safely return.

Airlines use reduced-decision speeds for a reason...

Food for thought

 

[ableone]

Most airlines require the PM to make a radio call as soon as the PF calls "Reject."

A successful RTO is useless, especially at night, if the tower does not know you aborted and someone is cleared to TO behind you.

As far as taking off with a blown tire. If you do it certainly don't retract the gear.

Especially at high weights when one tire goes it overloads the other tires on the bogie and they heat up.

Remember the charter DC-8 out of Saudi? A couple of tires blew on a main, the other tires overheated and after gear retraction they started a fire that spread to the CTR fuel tank.

The fire moved fast. The crew tried to return to the airport but the airframe came apart on final. It had been dropping parts, including pax seats from the CTR section, since the downwind leg.