Low Regional Minimums

[RJP]

Im sure this is his dream.

There is the problem. It's a ********************ing JOB. It's the dreamers that have ********************ed up this industry.

Pinnacle, PSA and USA Jet are the first ones to have these official minimums:
Comm-MEL
Inst-Airplane
NO HOURLY MINS

I just threw up........uke:

 

[Goose Egg]

My advice- Think long and hard before flying for a living. The guys warning you and trying to dissuade you are all airline guys. Most of them were not that different from you. They all wanted to be pilots living the dream. They are here, and have nothing to gain by warning you off. Consider the source when listening to your flight instructor friends. They have not flown 121. Realize that you are not going to be the same person 10 years down the road. Seeing the world and nailing FA's today, somehow morphs into being stuck in a $hitty hotel alone on Christmas in the midwest tomorrow. Phone calls to your friends about the crazy overnights turn into phone calls to your lonely wife and a 3 year old child you hardly know.
If you fail to heed these warnings, you have no one to blame but yourself. You have been warned.

You have some valid points, and I definitely see how things could get tough living that "A-life" (A for airline, like G for gangsta). The question I ask myself when I hear people talk about "living the dream" is what they actually consider the "dream" to be. If your expectation (like certain CFIs I know) is that you will be working very little and partying like rock stars, then yeah, I see how that could get old really quick if it actually ever does happen for one thing, and become extremely disenchanting if it doesn't. If your expectation is that you will have the opportunity each day to make a living by getting up and becoming better and more skilled at something that you love, then there will be plenty of opportunities for that. That's probably way too optimistic for flightinfo, but believe me, that mindset has kept me from burning out on instructing after many hundreds of hours of bad landings and near death experiences.

Now, being 30, I actually probably will be the same person in ten years. Hopefully, anyway. I like who I am... but I will continue to try to improve myself.

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that people, I think, are always trying to "arrive" in life, so they can "relax." My contention is that you never "arrive," and life is such that it never allows you to "relax." Anyone who tells you differently is selling something. But there is still much joy to be had. Life is about the journey; being on the journey is "arriving." It's an uncommon mindset to be sure, and definitely awkward for some. (Ahh, that sweet mountain bike racer ethos showing through once again. It has served me well.)

Using that logic, I have decided that working in a 121 environment would be extremely beneficial to me and my career progression (the flying and learning part, not the rock star part.) However, I am not placing all my hopes in an airline to satisfy every desire that I have in life. It's not a panacea, and to expect it to be so would be foolish. I have the responsibility of making something of myself, of making myself happy; it takes more than just accepting the job offer and waiting for the upgrade.

Being away for Christmas would be disappointing, but it is just a day, afterall (as religious as I am). What's wrong with the other 364 to spend time with your family members? (as well as the other 364 to live your religion?) I mean sure, spending time with the extended family is good and should be done, but I think my most pressing concern would be for my immediate family. To be sure, being physically gone would be a challenge, but I don't think that people who are struggling in their relationships take good enough advantage of the time that they actually have to spend together. They are in this "gone all the time" mindset, so they overlook real opportunities to help solidify and strengthen the relationship.

But then again, I am still young, single, and quite inexperienced with the ways of the world. That's just what it looks like from the outside looking in.

Anyway, I've been warned.

-Goose

 

[Leroy Smith]

Using that logic, I have decided that working in a 121 environment would be extremely beneficial to me and my career progression (the flying and learning part, not the rock star part.)

-Goose

Dollars to donuts, I learned a He!! of a lot more flying around in bad weather at 5000' and 110kts (and WAY more teaching other people how to do it while keeping us both out of the dirt) than I have flying the Barbie-Jet. You will do a lot less "flying" than you probably think. And while there is plenty to learn in a jet/121 environment, you will have some huge holes in your knowledge that will just be papered-over without some solid experience coming in.

Working for a regional will be very beneficial to your resume, it will not do quite as much for your aeronautical experience or knowledge. Pretty good chance it will suck the joy out of flying for you too. And for all your positive work-ethic proclamations, any career progression depends 100% on the arbitrary movement of your respective seniority list. And just plain luck with picking the right list to get on in the first place.

Want some more multi/turbine/crew time for your resume and make more money than being a CFI(no, not at first. And maybe you will get lucky and choose the one that will have a quick upgrade in a year or two from now)? A regional is a pretty good bet. For all the other stuff, reconsider.

 

[Goose Egg]

...for all your positive work-ethic proclamations, any career progression depends 100% on the arbitrary movement of your respective seniority list. And just plain luck with picking the right list to get on in the first place... Want some more multi/turbine/crew time for your resume and make more money than being a CFI(no, not at first. And maybe you will get lucky and choose the one that will have a quick upgrade in a year or two from now)? A regional is a pretty good bet.

I'm not really talking about work ethic (don't confuse ethos with ethic--two separate things.) I'm talking about a flexible mindset. A regional is a good first step into a flying career, but that's all--I'm not expecting anything more from it. This was all I was really trying to say.


-Goose

 

[Leroy Smith]

Good for you (really, no snarky FI sarcasm) in making an educated choice. I came into this game as a second career and just short of middle age. I thought I was pretty well educated and level-headed in the way that I approached the industry, I probably sounded a lot like you (although I think you may have done a better job of due-diligence). I have become increasingly disilusioned though, and I hate to see folks coming in with the wrong idea of what they are getting into.

I cant say I regret my choice, and I certainly dont hate my job. But there is a lot that I just didnt account for properly. Some of that may be the industry changing for the worse, and some was just loving to fly and being fed-up with my really good but really boring cubicle job- rose colored glasses and all that. Looking back, I really felt more personal satisfaction in instructing.

Good luck and fair skies in whatever path you choose!!

 

[QueensPilot]

Great Post Goose Egg, you must really like to read. I believe happiness is definitely in your head, no matter what job you have. Even rock stars have it tough, sometimes tougher than everyone.

 

[inplaneview]

Are any of the Regionals hiring straight into the captain seat? I'M A 7500 Part 121 guy about to be furloughed and will need a job. Hate to think about starting over again while I wait the 2 or 3 years that it might take to get recalled.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Pinnacle guys are bidding for and getting awarded capt during indoc. Great Lakes is hiring capts off the street. TSA may be doing Capt Qualified FOs.

If u want more money, Ameristar, Cherry, and IFL I think are all hiring street captains.

cliff
YIP

 

[Thurman Merman]

With 250 hours and 50 multi, you are SOOOOO ready to go fly a jet!!!! Just walk into any HR department and demand they give you a job flying at FL350 and 450kts. God knows I could use a few more 250 hour wonder pilots sitting next to me up front.

Hey don't harp on this guy until you've sat in his seat. We are getting fed up with low time guys getting thrown next to us after being pushed through training. Some low time guys do a good job right away but the majority struggle and we have to deal with it. For us turboprop guys its worse cause you have to fly more, nothing like a 6 leg day feeling like your single pilot.

I remember at 250 hrs a had to bite, scratch, claw, for another 250 hrs just to be able to fly traffic watch in a c152. It's the industry now and no one can fault guys milking the opurtunity but don't rag on us for being sour and frustrated. It's our certificates hanging in the balance, and instead of being able to read the discarded US Weekly or In Style, now I have to watch these guys Like a hawk.

Where's my Check Airman pay!!??

 

[exphojump]

Unless you are going to pursue a fun aspect of flying that you can speak fondly of 30 years from now, in a boring automated jet, take the regional job.

Crop dusting, flying boxes, bush pilot, jump pilot, aerial survey, banner towing, glider towing etc... would improve your skills and be fun.

Flight instructing will aid in communication, understanding fundamentals, and general boredom. It will not make you a better stick or for the most part build your multi time.

Research the airlines with low mins, and pick the one with least screwed up training department. Buy 10 hours of multi engine sim and have an instructor strengthen your instrument skills prior to training or during ground school.

If you get sick of being abused at the regional, in a few years you'll have the time and experience to pursue the fun flying, if you wish or a better airline.

Office life sucks, if you love flying, fly

 

[AV1ATRX]

My two cents worth is that for someone who has their heart set on flying for an airline has to find out for themselves what it's like. Telling those people how much they'll hate being in a hotel away from thier family on Christmas isn't doing any good. I know because I was one of those people. I would have never believed it until I lived it myself.

Someone posted that it changes you. I agree whole-heartedly. These people have to try it and see for themselves. Even if it is a bad experience, they can say they gave it a shot.

I do not believe in hiring low-timers, and the original poster certainly applies. That's probably because I had to instruct, fly charter, fly checks, etc. before I got my first airline job and I think people should have to do what I did. But I have to agree with what someone else said - get an airline job and get your time as soon as you can. The industry could change in a day and the minimums go back to 2000TT 500 multi and then you'll be me on 9/12/01 - begging for a CFI job somewhere to stay in an airplane. Take advantage of the current state of the industry.

That being said, of all my flying jobs it was flying King Airs that I've enjoyed the most, and if you go straight from a 172 to ERJ you'll never know how much fun you can have with other types of flying.

 

[inplaneview]

Hi!

Pinnacle guys are bidding for and getting awarded capt during indoc. Great Lakes is hiring capts off the street. TSA may be doing Capt Qualified FOs.

If u want more money, Ameristar, Cherry, and IFL I think are all hiring street captains.

cliff
YIP

Cliff, thanks for the info.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

For god's sake (and everyone elses, really), at least flight instruct before taking an airline job. I don't understand how anyone goes from a 250 hr. commerical certificate to the right seat.

All your experience is ensconced in training without real-world PIC decision making.

.

 

[JediNein]

Why flight instruct? Why be paid dismal wages if any at all, begging for one more bloody hour of multi time, or glass time, or complex time, etc. when you can be paid dismal wages while getting the multiengine turbine time?

Get the **** airline job, learn how to fly there, and move on to the majors. If you have a feather in your cap to flight instruct, do so on your off days or after you've retired.

These opportunities come around about once a decade, go for it now. Let others whine about how they had to spend XXX years making dirt before flying the big iron. Keep your chortle to yourself until you're sitting left seat at your 'retirement' airline.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

JOHN,

Rtmcfi and Leroy give great advice. Might differ slightly but they certainly thought out their responses. I'd say go the CFI route if only for the summer and early fall. Spend June-October instructing and at the very least double your 250 hours to 500 hours. You'll probably pick up some multi along the way and then re-evaluate the regionals.

When I instructed I met a heck of a lot of wealthy individuals who have helped me out in some way along my aviation journey. Many I consider friends. As one poster pointed out, you could meet someone who puts you in the right seat of a citation or King Air. That could lead to a career position for all you know. Five to six months instructing full-time is nothing. You'll walk away a far better pilot with even that short period of time teaching. Probably get to fly some really cool airplanes too.

If you followed the above plan and get hired at a regional before let's say, Thanksgiving, you'll probably have 1000 hours with 500 jet by the end of summer 2008 and although you'll have a nice beginning resume, still won't know much about flying. That's the point, thru sarcasm in many cases, that some of the more experienced flyers here are trying to communicate. Again, spend the summer and a bit more teaching and you'll come away a much better pilot for it.

Mr. I.