Lord Farquaad In The Fuhrerbunker

[gutshotdraw]

There is no decertification under the RLA. Don't you get it? The "decert campaign" is over. It just happened and the union won the election.

That's why he's up in his treehouse, as you say. That was his last and very best shot at ridding himself of those bad old teamsters and it's over.

There is know other company out there that is big enough for him to acquire to force another representation vote. End of story.

Sure you can decertify a union. Teamsters 284/1108 decertified in order to establish the independent NJASAP. US Airways decertified ALPA during a temper tantrum in order to establish USAPA. It can be done.

If Kenn is able to foment enough division and spread enough FUD, there is a mechanism in place to do so. I doubt he could be successful but it is possible.

 

[FracMonkey]

Sure you can decertify a union. Teamsters 284/1108 decertified in order to establish the independent NJASAP. US Airways decertified ALPA during a temper tantrum in order to establish USAPA. It can be done.

If Kenn is able to foment enough division and spread enough FUD, there is a mechanism in place to do so. I doubt he could be successful but it is possible.

Exactly, and those of you who are cocky enough to think that the 1108 is somehow invincible are just as dangerous as he is.

KR sees the narrow margin of victory as an opportunity and don't think for a second that while he pouts in his treehouse he's not thinking of ways to coax 1% of the pilot group to his way of thinking......

 

[Praetorian]

Sure you can decertify a union. Teamsters 284/1108 decertified in order to establish the independent NJASAP. US Airways decertified ALPA during a temper tantrum in order to establish USAPA. It can be done.

If Kenn is able to foment enough division and spread enough FUD, there is a mechanism in place to do so. I doubt he could be successful but it is possible.

What you're describing is not decertification, it's replacing one union with another. There are some very important differences.

 

[The Architect]

Two Years

Code of Federal Regulations
Title 29

CHAPTER X. NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD

Sec. 1206.4 Time limits on applications.

Except in unusual or extraordinary circumstances, the National Mediation Board will not accept an application for investigation of a representation dispute among employees of a carrier:

(a) For a period of two (2) years from the date of a certification covering the same craft or class of employees on the same carrier...

 

[doh]

So we have two years to convince more our fellow pilots to get on board. He has two years to sew division.

 

[Praetorian]

Exactly, and those of you who are cocky enough to think that the 1108 is somehow invincible are just as dangerous as he is.

KR sees the narrow margin of victory as an opportunity and don't think for a second that while he pouts in his treehouse he's not thinking of ways to coax 1% of the pilot group to his way of thinking......

That's not the way it works under the RLA. He can't simply "coax 1% of the pilot group" to join with the no voters and remove the union, as he could do if we were organized under the NLRA. He would need to convince 50% + 1 to vote in a new union. Historically this rarely happens, unless as it did at NJ, the union's current leadership gets behind the effort. There have already been at least two "in-house" efforts at Flight Options that failed to gain any momentum. I think that approach is played out.

So, yes of course we can't afford to rest on our laurels. We need to continue to organize, we need to convince the pilots that voted against the union that it has something to offer. These things will not happen overnight and they certainly were not going to happen over the period of the past 19 days since the union won the election. Pilots always want things to happen right now, it's in our nature. This will take hard work and patience and persistence.

I think it's important to accurately understand and put into context the enormity of the election we just won. It was an historic victory that places the pilots at FX and FO in a very strong position. The company knew going in that if we won their available avenues to remove the union would be limited, that's why they fought so hard and dirty to attempt a win.

We need to recognize that and take the necessary steps to move forward, and capitalize on our success, not wring our hands in fear of things that are not likely to happen. The bogeymen have been banished, they can only get back in if we let them.

 

[shanes123]

You will NEVER EVER GET THIS MANAGEMENT TO WORK WITH THE UNION NEVER HAVE NEVER WILL. unless everyone in management is replaced not just KR. And that won't happen either. It is gonna be a ugly battle the whole way thru.

 

[Imissmypilot]

There is no other company out there that is big enough for him to acquire to force another representation vote. End of story.

Don't be so sure there, Sparky.

Word on the street is XOjet is acquiring TMC and going after Wheels Up.

I'm not sure how that works with TMC being in the middle of negotiations. But you bet your bottom dollar if XOjet is crafty enough to build a sizeable non union shop, Kenn Ricci will pay any price to get another shot at this union thing. The slim margin of victory keeps his hopes alive. You'd be stupid to think those rich bastards don't already have a handshake deal about it and the cash out might be the only reason XO is even doing it.

One thing we have to face is the slim margin of victory also indicates some Options pilots are displeased. It's not all Flexjet that caused the low number.

The solution, in my most humble opinion? Get thru SLI quickly even if it pisses off a good portion of the pilot group. We MUST get quickly to negotiations. We MUST. Percentage of overall seniority is the fastest and fairest way.

It is at the negotiating table we will prove our worth to the pilot group and we must go after every brass ring out there, knowing full well already it will end up in arbitration. The good news is every arbitrator out there will have a long history of Kenn's games to look at and I trust we will get a good deal in the end if we give an arbitrator enough room to back down from.

At the end of the day, Options pilots won't much care about not being able to cash in on a DOH SLI lottery scam if they are paid well enough going forward.

BTW, including a parity signing bonus should be considered a mandatory inclusion to this contract. I say $400 per month for every year of service (including pretty purchase service for RTA and Flex folks) with a 75K cap. Sure, to an arbitrator it looks unreasonable at a 50 million dollar price tag but after showing him the contracts for the supersonics he'll realize old Kenn can afford it.

 

[Praetorian]

Don't be so sure there, Sparky.

Word on the street is XOjet is acquiring TMC and going after Wheels Up.

I'm not sure how that works with TMC being in the middle of negotiations. But you bet your bottom dollar if XOjet is crafty enough to build a sizeable non union shop, Kenn Ricci will pay any price to get another shot at this union thing. The slim margin of victory keeps his hopes alive. You'd be stupid to think those rich bastards don't already have a handshake deal about it and the cash out might be the only reason XO is even doing it.

One thing we have to face is the slim margin of victory also indicates some Options pilots are displeased. It's not all Flexjet that caused the low number.

The solution, in my most humble opinion? Get thru SLI quickly even if it pisses off a good portion of the pilot group. We MUST get quickly to negotiations. We MUST. Percentage of overall seniority is the fastest and fairest way.

It is at the negotiating table we will prove our worth to the pilot group and we must go after every brass ring out there, knowing full well already it will end up in arbitration. The good news is every arbitrator out there will have a long history of Kenn's games to look at and I trust we will get a good deal in the end if we give an arbitrator enough room to back down from.

At the end of the day, Options pilots won't much care about not being able to cash in on a DOH SLI lottery scam if they are paid well enough going forward.

BTW, including a parity signing bonus should be considered a mandatory inclusion to this contract. I say $400 per month for every year of service (including pretty purchase service for RTA and Flex folks) with a 75K cap. Sure, to an arbitrator it looks unreasonable at a 50 million dollar price tag but after showing him the contracts for the supersonics he'll realize old Kenn can afford it.

Relax. A combined TMC/XO Jet is not big enough. Jeesh, talk about wild speculation.

I agree with most of the rest of what you posted.

 

[flexible]

Relax. A combined TMC/XO Jet is not big enough. Jeesh, talk about wild speculation.

I agree with most of the rest of what you posted.

Once up on a time it was considered wild speculation that Bombabrdier was shopping around Flex.

We were told how crazy this idea was from the highest levels of management while it would seem they were in the middle of negotiations.

With the margins of victory Ken Ricci doesn't need a sizeable group, he only needs to make sure he'll get 2 more no votes thasn the last time when it all skakes down.

maybe thar guy is wild soeculating but you are inrealisticly cocky. I'm more inclinrd to believe theres more to be worried about than feel safe about. History is a good thing to examine in this case.

 

[el raton]

Don't be so sure there, Sparky.

Word on the street is XOjet is acquiring TMC and going after Wheels Up.

I'm not sure how that works with TMC being in the middle of negotiations. But you bet your bottom dollar if XOjet is crafty enough to build a sizeable non union shop, Kenn Ricci will pay any price to get another shot at this union thing. The slim margin of victory keeps his hopes alive. You'd be stupid to think those rich bastards don't already have a handshake deal about it and the cash out might be the only reason XO is even doing it.

One thing we have to face is the slim margin of victory also indicates some Options pilots are displeased. It's not all Flexjet that caused the low number.

The solution, in my most humble opinion? Get thru SLI quickly even if it pisses off a good portion of the pilot group. We MUST get quickly to negotiations. We MUST. Percentage of overall seniority is the fastest and fairest way.

It is at the negotiating table we will prove our worth to the pilot group and we must go after every brass ring out there, knowing full well already it will end up in arbitration. The good news is every arbitrator out there will have a long history of Kenn's games to look at and I trust we will get a good deal in the end if we give an arbitrator enough room to back down from.

At the end of the day, Options pilots won't much care about not being able to cash in on a DOH SLI lottery scam if they are paid well enough going forward.

BTW, including a parity signing bonus should be considered a mandatory inclusion to this contract. I say $400 per month for every year of service (including pretty purchase service for RTA and Flex folks) with a 75K cap. Sure, to an arbitrator it looks unreasonable at a 50 million dollar price tag but after showing him the contracts for the supersonics he'll realize old Kenn can afford it.

Very nicely stated.

The news of XO/TMC gives me hope and here's why...

If the SLI committee at Flex sells us out by offering DOH or even a watered down form of DOH to quickly move the contract process along, they will have laid the foundation for the demise of the 1108. Why? Because those at Flex who were negatively affected will be looking for any chance they can to get rid of the IBT. Kenn knows this too! He's probably praying for a DOH SLI. He knows he'll gain 200+ Flex pilots as allies who will be salivating for a do-over. He'll use a combined XO/TMC/Wheels Up to justify another vote (like we just had) to get rid of the IBT. The difference this time around is, 200+ Pilots at Flex will be looking for a chance to use Kenn's "method of usurping seniority" to regain their losses due to the DOH SLI. Does this make sense?

Or....we can integrate by percentage (period) and have a very strong unified group fighting for a worthy contract, and with every company Kenn buys, we only get stronger.

Remember, the next time around, Phil, SPT and co. will have a stronger voice because they'll have the majority of Flex backing them up...

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Once up on a time it was considered wild speculation that Bombabrdier was shopping around Flex.

We were told how crazy this idea was from the highest levels of management while it would seem they were in the middle of negotiations.

With the margins of victory Ken Ricci doesn't need a sizeable group, he only needs to make sure he'll get 2 more no votes thasn the last time when it all skakes down.

maybe thar guy is wild soeculating but you are inrealisticly cocky. I'm more inclinrd to believe theres more to be worried about than feel safe about. History is a good thing to examine in this case.

Hi Flex. You have to know by now that Kenn is a master at division. He calculates the least amount of salary that he has to pay to the least amount of pilots to win. Only problem this time was he miscalculated and was too cheap. As for the Lear 85, he said he was looking at that long ago only to put leverage on Embraer. He won that bet. Only problem with all of these distractions is the reality of not liking Kenn gambling with my future.

 

[Praetorian]

Once up on a time it was considered wild speculation that Bombabrdier was shopping around Flex.

We were told how crazy this idea was from the highest levels of management while it would seem they were in the middle of negotiations.

With the margins of victory Ken Ricci doesn't need a sizeable group, he only needs to make sure he'll get 2 more no votes thasn the last time when it all skakes down.

maybe thar guy is wild soeculating but you are inrealisticly cocky. I'm more inclinrd to believe theres more to be worried about than feel safe about. History is a good thing to examine in this case.

I'm not cocky, I just know the NMB's rules. XO and TMC are still two separate companies, now owned by the same holding company. The TMC pilots currently don't have a scope agreement which would compel a merger and there is no reason to believe the new parent intends to merge them. After all TMC does charter and XO mostly Frac. Unlike FX/options there are no economies of scale to be gained by merging them.

Also read my post above. Elections don't work the way you said.

All of this irrational hand-wringing has to stop. Management will exploit it and it will hurt us in barganing. We all have a union now. I know they are all over this situation and have our backs.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Praetorian - I'm not trying to gin up fear or marginalize solidarity, I am trying, in fact, to avoid it by pointing out the fact, win or lose, Kenn Ricci's ruthless desire to rid himself of the union (voted in precisely because of his management style) isn't going to stop at 2 votes shy of a win.

We MUST get to the business quickly of getting the benefits hoped for by bringing the union in to put an end to his nonsense and never have to worry about his tricks and coercion again.

So, since you appear to be the best expert on the nmb and voting process here on Flight info, what's your opinion on today's official challenge to throw out the vote?

Personally, I find it desperate. It's a little crazy the way they are claiming unfair practices on the part of the union when their side is heavy with examples of impropriety. I certainly trust the union is ready to forcefully respond.

Either way, we should not let this hiccup hold back SLI. I want a resolution as soon as possible. I don't think I'm alone.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Yes IMMP. The SLI should continue despite the company refusing to allow the committee members time off to get it done so we can all move on. KR's hatred of the union(his own pilots) clouds his judgment as he continues to fight us. In the latest propaganda release, the company wants us to continue to be safe. If KR is going to fight us every step of the way, how can he expect us to remain happy employees? Just doesn't add up to me.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Yes IMMP. The SLI should continue despite the company refusing to allow the committee members time off to get it done so we can all move on. KR's hatred of the union(his own pilots) clouds his judgment as he continues to fight us. In the latest propaganda release, the company wants us to continue to be safe. If KR is going to fight us every step of the way, how can he expect us to remain happy employees? Just doesn't add up to me.

Right, the backhanded implication being the union is the enity that makes us unsafe.

Must be special to live in his distorted version of reality.

Geeesshhh...

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Right, the backhanded implication being the union is the enity that makes us unsafe.

Must be special to live in his distorted version of reality.

Geeesshhh...

I know it really is distorted reality. And talk about unsafe, we now have a new small-cabin chief pilot that was removed from a PSM position because he was caught multiple times pushing pilots.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

I know it really is distorted reality. And talk about unsafe, we now have a new small-cabin chief pilot that was removed from a PSM position because he was caught multiple times pushing pilots.

Both companies have an ASAP program don't they? Duty time, management pressure, legal but stupid deferrals. The program is not just for actual violations. It might get thrown out but it still is documented. The program's best underused benefit is to show patterns of practice that have high potentiality for safety concerns The more information you give to the program, the more likely you are to achieve this goal.

Your solution is simple and I'm sure the company will be giving you plenty of legitimate concerns without the need for anyone to "be a hero" and stretch the truth.

Pilots need to stop being lazy and take the time to document these instances at every occurrence in the proper forum. Consider the extra 1/2 hour it might take you a contribution to future negotiating efforts. Nothing will help your group more at the table than the ability to show patterns of abuse the pilot group wants to establish work rules to avoid.

I hear a lot of complaining but sincerely doubt a single one of your whiners have taken the time to do the right thing or shed your fear of reprisal which is and always will be management's best tool against you. It's time to grow a pair.

My personal opinion on management's challenge to the vote legitimacy is they feel emboldened by the as of yet response from your pilot group to show support for the union they voted in. It's mind boggling.

 

[Praetorian]

Praetorian - I'm not trying to gin up fear or marginalize solidarity, I am trying, in fact, to avoid it by pointing out the fact, win or lose, Kenn Ricci's ruthless desire to rid himself of the union (voted in precisely because of his management style) isn't going to stop at 2 votes shy of a win.

We MUST get to the business quickly of getting the benefits hoped for by bringing the union in to put an end to his nonsense and never have to worry about his tricks and coercion again.

So, since you appear to be the best expert on the nmb and voting process here on Flight info, what's your opinion on today's official challenge to throw out the vote?

Personally, I find it desperate. It's a little crazy the way they are claiming unfair practices on the part of the union when their side is heavy with examples of impropriety. I certainly trust the union is ready to forcefully respond.

Either way, we should not let this hiccup hold back SLI. I want a resolution as soon as possible. I don't think I'm alone.

Yea, I know we are on the same team. As for yesterday's news that the company is contesting the election; this should be a lesson for all of us. Although the company is sure to lose this, it's clear from their announcement that they were emboldened by our disunity.

Job one going forward for us should be increasing solidarity. Simple as that. Unless we enjoy receiving smug, condescending letters, like the one we received yesterday. If that letter didn't piss everyone off, I'm at a loss...

 

[shanes123]

Guess your at a loss then Praetorian cause 95% of FJ pilots are backing KR