semperfido
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Long range duty times question
- Thread starter G550Driver
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We use common sence. I have done it enough to know that their is no scientific answer.
Our rule of thumb takes into account a variety of options:
We do 2 pilots up to 14 hours IF their is only one leg or less then 3 time zone changes (North/ South). Multiple legs/Multiple time zones above 12 hrs we add a 3rd pilot up until 18. Then we do 2 crews.
This is not scientific we switch crews in ANC on flights to and from Asia (based in NY)
It all comes down to common sence. I have done Narita to White Plains with 2 pilots (our third became ill and was forced to stay in Tokyo). All I did was call the CEO and tell him that he could not get the slot he wanted and that he would have to leave at 8am. Which equated to an all day light flight home with the two pilots working on a normal body clock.
I have also done ANC-Narita-Singapore on the back side of the clock, all night flying, on my circadian low, but I had 3 pilots.
Their is no right answer. It's common sence. You need to look at all of the information you have and trust the crews.
The biggest things in my opinion are:
Do as much flying during the daylight as you can.
Do as much flying on your normal body clock as you can (this requires some planning)
If you think you might need 3 pilots, take 3 pilots. Clearing customs takes longer then you think, or pax stuck traffic, or a late running meeting. Murphy's law.
If you are taking 3 pilots and have to stop for fuel or an additional pax. Preposition one pilot to the tech stop. One alert pilot is better then 3 tired pilots. Example NYC-London-Cairo. If have done this a couple of times. Depart NY at 8 pm fly all night, only to find Stanstead and/or Luton below mins, winding up in Farnbourough. Then waiting for a pax to arrive, after waiting for the limo in morning London traffic. Then departing in the morning fog to Cairo.
Flying all night with 3 tired pilots made no sence but we were "legal". The next time out we sent a pilot ahead to London. He got a solid nights sleep, met us at the airport and flew the leg to Cairo.
If you are stoping for fuel. Try to work a crew change into the tech stop. I understand that you may not be able to get a contract pilot or one of your normal line pilots may be on vacation. Things like this happen. Everytime I have been painted into a corner I have gone to the principal and asked him/her to adjust their travel times for safety. I have never been turned down. Use common sence.
Our rule of thumb takes into account a variety of options:
We do 2 pilots up to 14 hours IF their is only one leg or less then 3 time zone changes (North/ South). Multiple legs/Multiple time zones above 12 hrs we add a 3rd pilot up until 18. Then we do 2 crews.
This is not scientific we switch crews in ANC on flights to and from Asia (based in NY)
It all comes down to common sence. I have done Narita to White Plains with 2 pilots (our third became ill and was forced to stay in Tokyo). All I did was call the CEO and tell him that he could not get the slot he wanted and that he would have to leave at 8am. Which equated to an all day light flight home with the two pilots working on a normal body clock.
I have also done ANC-Narita-Singapore on the back side of the clock, all night flying, on my circadian low, but I had 3 pilots.
Their is no right answer. It's common sence. You need to look at all of the information you have and trust the crews.
The biggest things in my opinion are:
Do as much flying during the daylight as you can.
Do as much flying on your normal body clock as you can (this requires some planning)
If you think you might need 3 pilots, take 3 pilots. Clearing customs takes longer then you think, or pax stuck traffic, or a late running meeting. Murphy's law.
If you are taking 3 pilots and have to stop for fuel or an additional pax. Preposition one pilot to the tech stop. One alert pilot is better then 3 tired pilots. Example NYC-London-Cairo. If have done this a couple of times. Depart NY at 8 pm fly all night, only to find Stanstead and/or Luton below mins, winding up in Farnbourough. Then waiting for a pax to arrive, after waiting for the limo in morning London traffic. Then departing in the morning fog to Cairo.
Flying all night with 3 tired pilots made no sence but we were "legal". The next time out we sent a pilot ahead to London. He got a solid nights sleep, met us at the airport and flew the leg to Cairo.
If you are stoping for fuel. Try to work a crew change into the tech stop. I understand that you may not be able to get a contract pilot or one of your normal line pilots may be on vacation. Things like this happen. Everytime I have been painted into a corner I have gone to the principal and asked him/her to adjust their travel times for safety. I have never been turned down. Use common sence.
Last edited:
G550Driver
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Awesome feed back.
Has anyone actually flown to Bali from PHNL or Coldbay, Alaska? We have been looking a both places. Crew change is easier at PHNL.
We don't normally do trips that are this long. We only fly a few international trips a year. This year it happens to be on the other side of the planet where no one in our department has been before.
Has anyone actually flown to Bali from PHNL or Coldbay, Alaska? We have been looking a both places. Crew change is easier at PHNL.
We don't normally do trips that are this long. We only fly a few international trips a year. This year it happens to be on the other side of the planet where no one in our department has been before.
G550Driver said:
All more the reason for doing a complete crew swap during your tech stop. Been down the road of the three pilot deal too many times and it never seemed like there was fresh and alert one amongst us. Last time one of the crew actually became ill (due to fatigue) and we nearly missed the next leg of the trip. I'll bet once you run the numbers, prepositioning the relief crew will only add 5% or less to the total cost of the trip. Pretty cheap price for the added safety benefit in my book.
Gulfstream 200
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G550Driver said:
without a doubt crew change in PHNL. Its painless and quick and the weather is predictable.
We do a lot of positioning through PANC (like most departments) and there are plenty of times when I think I might not get in there!
Alaska...Hawaii....no brainer there!!!
Good Luck!
G100driver
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Gulfstream 200
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We dont carry a third crew member at all. If we are flying a 12 hour leg we will reposition a fresh crew down the road if the airplane keeps going. We get 12 hours on the ground in a hotel for all crossings etc.
As far as the airlines, we fly coach domestic and business or first class international. We stay in great hotels.
We fly to the Far East all the time, every month. Our trips start in Switzerland and go to Narita, Singapore, Beijing, Macau, etc. It's not uncommon to do a 14 day trip with the same crew with a different stop every other day.
It's not uncommon to make 3 round trips to Switzerland from MMU every week for a year either......
As far as the airlines, we fly coach domestic and business or first class international. We stay in great hotels.
We fly to the Far East all the time, every month. Our trips start in Switzerland and go to Narita, Singapore, Beijing, Macau, etc. It's not uncommon to do a 14 day trip with the same crew with a different stop every other day.
It's not uncommon to make 3 round trips to Switzerland from MMU every week for a year either......
Last edited:
AA717driver
A simpler time...
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Our techs double as FA's for the low maintainance pax. We're taking three pilots and a tech on our adventure next week.
Our SOP requrires us to ride in business if the flight is over 4 hours. Funny, we seem to be riding on SWA a lot lately...
In November they did put us in business class on JFK-WAW--On LOT! What next? Aeroflot? 
TC
Our SOP requrires us to ride in business if the flight is over 4 hours. Funny, we seem to be riding on SWA a lot lately...
In November they did put us in business class on JFK-WAW--On LOT! What next? Aeroflot? TCG100driver
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