Logging of flight time, when you never fly?

[7B2]

I've spend a lot of time talking about flying AT the airport.

Can I log that time as experience?
I say yes since the talking was done at the airport!!


Gimme a break guys, are we really logging this BS taxi time in our logbooks?

 

[Matterhorn]

I know pilots who if they have a run-up problem and don’t fly, add that little bit of hobbs time to the next flight. I don’t agree with that practice either. Two tenths isn’t going to get you anywhere in life. It’s just a desperate grasp at logging every bit of time they possibly can. Next they’ll be logging time when the engine is shut down while they sit and talk. Or pre-flight. Just log what you fly!

Fudging your logbook a little will get you nowhere. Fudging it a lot will get you caught.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Every time this has been done in my logbook it was a CFI writing it, like back when I was doing training. I’ve never done it personally I just wanted some opinions, thanks ya’ll.

 

[avbug]

This did not used to be.

Actually, it really did.

It's far from a new practice.

Obviously you've never flown conventional gear aircraft, or were properly taught that in any aircraft the flight is not over until the airplane is chocked, shut down, and fully secured. The same may be said of the events leading up to the flight.

Truthfully, we should start logging before the engine starts, but we don't. By legality, we log following the start and when the aircraft begins to move under it's own power. If one is just getting to the business of going flying at that point, one is already far too late.

 

[nosehair]

It's far from a new practice.

You're right, it is far from a new practice. This practice of using the hobbs meter started in mass in the sudden blossoming of flight schools around the country when the government started the G.I. Bill paying 90% of all flight training during the Viet-Nam war. The hobbs meter appeared and no one cared because "da gubment" is paying for it. Prior to this time, the real Mom & pop schools trusted that the renter would log and pay from T.O. to landing time.
Some less trusting places used the tacometer, which was reasonable, since the tach only rolls over an hour for an hour of cruise RPM. The little bit of time taxiing at low rpm was insignificant.

Obviously you've never flown conventional gear aircraft, or were properly taught that in any aircraft the flight is not over until the airplane is chocked, shut down, and fully secured. The same may be said of the events leading up to the flight.

Actually, I was an Army Bird-dog (Cessna O-1E) Instructor during the Viet-Nam war, and we did take a lot of care flying the airplane all the way through the after landing roll and taxi, but we did not log the taxi time as flight time.

Truthfully, we should start logging before the engine starts, but we don't. By legality, we log following the start and when the aircraft begins to move under it's own power. If one is just getting to the business of going flying at that point, one is already far too late.

aahh, so you think we should start logging the preflight preparation and post flight security and de-briefing as flight time....really?...is that what you think?

 

[avbug]

Nope, brightspark. I didn't say that. My opinion on the matter isn't particularly relevent.

You seem to think the world began about the time of the gulf of tonkin resoloution. It didn't. Logging practices to which I referred date back far before that time, back to when aviation began.

Do a little research.

As an OE-1 Pilot you didn't log taxi time or ground operations time as it's not standard military practice.

You may have noted that there's more to the flying community than flying in the military; one might consider it but one company, among many in a big, bright world. You may have noted that we're discussing logging of flight time for civil purposes and thus the regulations that applied to your logging at that time are hardly relevant.

You may also be aware that most companies apply a conversion factor to military time to account for ground operations time, typically two tenths per military hour. Or did you not know that??

 

[nosehair]

mmm...OK, my reference to the military practice was an aside, an attempt at showing what the "standard practice" was before the introduction of the hobbs meter. My military experience is only a small portion of my background. Mostly it's civilian. All of my initial training in the late fifties/early sixties was in cubs, aeroncas, 172's, etc. paying by the clocked flight hour, T.O. to Landing Roll-Out, or by the engine tach. I didn't encounter the hobbs method - engine start til engine shutdown - until I saw flight schools build up for the G.I. Bill flight training in the mid-sixties.

That is my experience. You obviously have had a different experience. My training occured in the south with part 61 rentals at small airports. Probably the bigger pilot mills used the hobbs meter. I don't even know when it was implemented in mass around the country, but not in my experience in the early sixties.

You pose an interesting challange about doing some research. I honestly thought the practice of logging time was from T.O. to Landing. That was how it was introduced to me, and the regulation seemed to say exactly that.
The early days of flying was from an open field. You cranked 'er up, 'n run 'er up in the corner of the field and took off from that spot unless ya had to taxi around to another corner to ger 'er more into the wind. Then you landed so as to end the landing roll close to the parking spot.

To me, that sounds more like "moving under it's on power for the purpose of flight until after landing."

I think the rule was written when it did not take 20 or so minutes to taxi. At the time there was no need to be more specific, and I agree that some taxi and runup time should be included in the required training time for solo and private pilot, but after a period, and up to a point, it shouldn't be logged as flight time.

Most operators still use the tachometer to determine when the 100 hour is due.
To me, this is the best way to mechanically track time. There is a little wear at taxi idle and you should get a little credit, but not full credit.

At a small non-towered airport, the difference isn't so big, but I have seen flight schools at large busy airports where the wait-for-takeoff line is 20 minutes long. Add this to the run-up and taxi back after landing and you're talking 30 minutes out of a 1.5 flight. so you really have only an hour in the air.

If that was on the tach, it would be 1.1, maybe 1.2. Wouldn't you really rather have real air time for what you pay for?

 

[airksk]

If you taxi across a runway without a clearance, could you be violated? Why are taxi times so long in many places? Perhaps it is because there are many airplanes out there, and if you don't pay attention to your taxi it can jump up and bite you. The first time anyone flies into O'hare, Logan, JFK, DFW, etc... will quickly teach you that taxiing takes as much work as flying. Granted some airports are easier than others, but as a pilot you are still responsible for where you go, following the instructions of ATC, and maintaining safe operation of your aircraft. Why shouldn't that time be logged? Talk to any newly upgraded captain, who wasn't responsible for finding their way around on the ground for years as an FO, and many of them will tell you that the taxi phase is the toughest thing to adjust to on line.

 

[nosehair]

I am totally 100% in favor of "taxi Training", or "runway incursion avoidance".

I know from my own stupid mistakes over the years about how difficult it can be to find your way to the appropriate ramp after having navigated halway across the continent...don't even get me started about this huge, big hole in our training. I think pilots should be limited to certain airport sizes until they recieve training in ground operations at large airports - like student pilots in Class B airspace. Our lack of training in this area is the precise reason there are so many runway incursions.

But it is not flight time.