Logging of flight time, when you never fly?

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

I’ve heard from a few DPEs and other CFIs that logging of flight time with the "intent to fly" is perfectly legal. Even in the instance you have a mechanical failure, and therefore never take-off. I have a few entries in my logbook where we've taxied out and had something that didn't check out upon run up. My thing is, I'm looking through the regulations and I see nowhere where it mentions, "intent to fly". Please direct me to the correct area, which I'm overlooking, or let me know if I've been misinformed.


Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.

Fly safe,
TA

 

[transpac]

I’ve heard from a few DPEs and other CFIs that logging of flight time with the "intent to fly" is perfectly legal. Even in the instance you have a mechanical failure, and therefore never take-off. I have a few entries in my logbook where we've taxied out and had something that didn't check out upon run up.

Webmaster: Please move this to the "YGBSM" forum.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Oh no... I'm dead serious.

 

[Lead Sled]

You answered your own question...

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.

What you were told would be correct if it weren't for that pesky "after landing" phrase. In other words, no flight - no flight time.

Lead Sled

 

[nosehair]

Yep , just more B.S. for the purpose of logging the Hobbs meter as flight time...WHICH IT ISN'T !!!

"...moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight.." has been twisted by the flight schools to cover the hobbs taxi/runup/waitfortakeoff time. That ain't flight time either. When you taxi out from your chocks, you are moving for the purpose of repositioning for run-up, or at least to taxi out to line up on a runway to apply power for the purpose of flight. That's when flight time really starts and is the intent of the regulation. And that was the way it was before the hobbs meter. And that's why it was easier to solo in 10 hours and get a private in 40 hours...it was actually flight hours.

 

[JeffSKDTW]

Yep , just more B.S. for the purpose of logging the Hobbs meter as flight time...WHICH IT ISN'T !!!

"...moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight.." has been twisted by the flight schools to cover the hobbs taxi/runup/waitfortakeoff time. That ain't flight time either. When you taxi out from your chocks, you are moving for the purpose of repositioning for run-up, or at least to taxi out to line up on a runway to apply power for the purpose of flight. That's when flight time really starts and is the intent of the regulation. And that was the way it was before the hobbs meter. And that's why it was easier to solo in 10 hours and get a private in 40 hours...it was actually flight hours.

Nosehair, typically I find your posts to be spot on, but in this case I don't think your comments represent the "true intent" of the regulations. In fact, according to the FAA FAQ's, it states just the opposite (and further states it has been confirmed by legal opinion--admittedly, I do not have access to that legal opinion).
______________________
QUESTION: Some time ago I wrote looking for input on § 1.1 that defines “pilot flight time”. I said that some of our pilots claimed “flight time” included start, warm-up, taxi, run-up, and further taxi (all under the assumption that this time is “for the purpose of flight”) while the purists in the group claimed that flight time didn't even start until power was applied at the end of the runway.

After we get to § 1.1, does flight time include start, warm-up, taxi to the run-up area, further taxi to the runway, etc. or does “moving under its own power for the purpose of flight” begin only when the aircraft is lined up on the centerline beginning its take-off roll? The argument, of course, is that since most GA aircraft begin charging for the airplane once the engine starts, most pilots have decided to log what they pay for. But there is another group of pilots who say that warm-up and taxi time is not flight time. Has the FAA explained the definition we find in § 1.1?

ANSWER: Ref. § 1.1 and § 61.51; It means “. . . when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing . . .” Or, the more commonly referred definition is “Block‑to‑Block” time. The following has been checked and verified with General Counsel, AGC-240:

Start up: No, you can not log that as flight time.

Warm-up: No, you can not log that as flight time if the aircraft has not yet moved from the parking location.

Taxi: Yes, you can log that as flight time.

Run-up: Yes, you can log that time. After all, attempted flight without run-up could appear careless & reckless.

Further taxi to the runway, etc.: Yes, you can log that as flight time.

The aircraft moves out onto the runway, throttle up to takeoff power, and begins the takeoff roll: Obviously, yes, you can log that as flight time.

Landing and roll out: Yes, you can log that as flight time.

Taxi in to parking: Yes, you can log that as flight time.

Engine Shut Down: No you can not log that as flight time after the airplane is in a parking position.

{Q&A-374}

 

[nosehair]

Jeff, I didn't mean to imply that my definition of flight time was the legal definition. I know of the FAA FAQ opinion, and I don't try to "buck the system" on this...it's no big deal. I was just venting on the fact that this is a "politically correct" opinion, just like the logging PIC time when you are not the PIC. This did not used to be. It is not common sense. But common sense has left the building. Legal interpretations abound. Go ahead and log your taxi and runup time as flight time - it's legal! Go ahead and log your time with an instructor as PIC time - it's legal! But you see how it gets out of hand? The original poster was asking about logging a taxi-out as a flight because he moved the airplane for the purpose of flight - go ahead and log it - it's legal!

#@%#*#%

 

[JeffSKDTW]

Thanks for the clarification, nosehair.

 

[Lead Sled]

The original poster was asking about logging a taxi-out as a flight because he moved the airplane for the purpose of flight - go ahead and log it - it's legal

That's not quite right. The FAQs assume that a flight took place. In this example, he taxied out for the purpose of flight, encountered a mechanical problem and returned to the ramp without flying. Under those conditions, the taxi time can not count as flight time - there was no flight. By definition, flight time ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.

Lead Sled

 

[nosehair]

The FAQs assume

See? There's that word again - ASSUME - it makes an ASS out of U and ME.

It also screws up a lot of the "Opinions" rendered by the "Officials".

 

[7B2]

I've spend a lot of time talking about flying AT the airport.

Can I log that time as experience?
I say yes since the talking was done at the airport!!


Gimme a break guys, are we really logging this BS taxi time in our logbooks?

 

[Matterhorn]

I know pilots who if they have a run-up problem and don’t fly, add that little bit of hobbs time to the next flight. I don’t agree with that practice either. Two tenths isn’t going to get you anywhere in life. It’s just a desperate grasp at logging every bit of time they possibly can. Next they’ll be logging time when the engine is shut down while they sit and talk. Or pre-flight. Just log what you fly!

Fudging your logbook a little will get you nowhere. Fudging it a lot will get you caught.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Every time this has been done in my logbook it was a CFI writing it, like back when I was doing training. I’ve never done it personally I just wanted some opinions, thanks ya’ll.

 

[avbug]

This did not used to be.

Actually, it really did.

It's far from a new practice.

Obviously you've never flown conventional gear aircraft, or were properly taught that in any aircraft the flight is not over until the airplane is chocked, shut down, and fully secured. The same may be said of the events leading up to the flight.

Truthfully, we should start logging before the engine starts, but we don't. By legality, we log following the start and when the aircraft begins to move under it's own power. If one is just getting to the business of going flying at that point, one is already far too late.

 

[nosehair]

It's far from a new practice.

You're right, it is far from a new practice. This practice of using the hobbs meter started in mass in the sudden blossoming of flight schools around the country when the government started the G.I. Bill paying 90% of all flight training during the Viet-Nam war. The hobbs meter appeared and no one cared because "da gubment" is paying for it. Prior to this time, the real Mom & pop schools trusted that the renter would log and pay from T.O. to landing time.
Some less trusting places used the tacometer, which was reasonable, since the tach only rolls over an hour for an hour of cruise RPM. The little bit of time taxiing at low rpm was insignificant.

Obviously you've never flown conventional gear aircraft, or were properly taught that in any aircraft the flight is not over until the airplane is chocked, shut down, and fully secured. The same may be said of the events leading up to the flight.

Actually, I was an Army Bird-dog (Cessna O-1E) Instructor during the Viet-Nam war, and we did take a lot of care flying the airplane all the way through the after landing roll and taxi, but we did not log the taxi time as flight time.

Truthfully, we should start logging before the engine starts, but we don't. By legality, we log following the start and when the aircraft begins to move under it's own power. If one is just getting to the business of going flying at that point, one is already far too late.

aahh, so you think we should start logging the preflight preparation and post flight security and de-briefing as flight time....really?...is that what you think?

 

[avbug]

Nope, brightspark. I didn't say that. My opinion on the matter isn't particularly relevent.

You seem to think the world began about the time of the gulf of tonkin resoloution. It didn't. Logging practices to which I referred date back far before that time, back to when aviation began.

Do a little research.

As an OE-1 Pilot you didn't log taxi time or ground operations time as it's not standard military practice.

You may have noted that there's more to the flying community than flying in the military; one might consider it but one company, among many in a big, bright world. You may have noted that we're discussing logging of flight time for civil purposes and thus the regulations that applied to your logging at that time are hardly relevant.

You may also be aware that most companies apply a conversion factor to military time to account for ground operations time, typically two tenths per military hour. Or did you not know that??

 

[nosehair]

mmm...OK, my reference to the military practice was an aside, an attempt at showing what the "standard practice" was before the introduction of the hobbs meter. My military experience is only a small portion of my background. Mostly it's civilian. All of my initial training in the late fifties/early sixties was in cubs, aeroncas, 172's, etc. paying by the clocked flight hour, T.O. to Landing Roll-Out, or by the engine tach. I didn't encounter the hobbs method - engine start til engine shutdown - until I saw flight schools build up for the G.I. Bill flight training in the mid-sixties.

That is my experience. You obviously have had a different experience. My training occured in the south with part 61 rentals at small airports. Probably the bigger pilot mills used the hobbs meter. I don't even know when it was implemented in mass around the country, but not in my experience in the early sixties.

You pose an interesting challange about doing some research. I honestly thought the practice of logging time was from T.O. to Landing. That was how it was introduced to me, and the regulation seemed to say exactly that.
The early days of flying was from an open field. You cranked 'er up, 'n run 'er up in the corner of the field and took off from that spot unless ya had to taxi around to another corner to ger 'er more into the wind. Then you landed so as to end the landing roll close to the parking spot.

To me, that sounds more like "moving under it's on power for the purpose of flight until after landing."

I think the rule was written when it did not take 20 or so minutes to taxi. At the time there was no need to be more specific, and I agree that some taxi and runup time should be included in the required training time for solo and private pilot, but after a period, and up to a point, it shouldn't be logged as flight time.

Most operators still use the tachometer to determine when the 100 hour is due.
To me, this is the best way to mechanically track time. There is a little wear at taxi idle and you should get a little credit, but not full credit.

At a small non-towered airport, the difference isn't so big, but I have seen flight schools at large busy airports where the wait-for-takeoff line is 20 minutes long. Add this to the run-up and taxi back after landing and you're talking 30 minutes out of a 1.5 flight. so you really have only an hour in the air.

If that was on the tach, it would be 1.1, maybe 1.2. Wouldn't you really rather have real air time for what you pay for?

 

[airksk]

If you taxi across a runway without a clearance, could you be violated? Why are taxi times so long in many places? Perhaps it is because there are many airplanes out there, and if you don't pay attention to your taxi it can jump up and bite you. The first time anyone flies into O'hare, Logan, JFK, DFW, etc... will quickly teach you that taxiing takes as much work as flying. Granted some airports are easier than others, but as a pilot you are still responsible for where you go, following the instructions of ATC, and maintaining safe operation of your aircraft. Why shouldn't that time be logged? Talk to any newly upgraded captain, who wasn't responsible for finding their way around on the ground for years as an FO, and many of them will tell you that the taxi phase is the toughest thing to adjust to on line.

 

[nosehair]

I am totally 100% in favor of "taxi Training", or "runway incursion avoidance".

I know from my own stupid mistakes over the years about how difficult it can be to find your way to the appropriate ramp after having navigated halway across the continent...don't even get me started about this huge, big hole in our training. I think pilots should be limited to certain airport sizes until they recieve training in ground operations at large airports - like student pilots in Class B airspace. Our lack of training in this area is the precise reason there are so many runway incursions.

But it is not flight time.