Lobby for Age 70!

[mamba20]

old guys go away. You knew you had to retire at age 60 and were given a gift by our idiot ex president. you don't get anymore. you've screwed enough lives up with your greed. Go away, time to pass the torch to a younger generation.

 

[Truckdriver]

One level of medical for all. If you want to up the standards, fine. But don't start whining when YOU lose YOUR medical at 45 because you don't measure up.

We don't have one level of medical right now so I don't think we should under a new system either. You know as well as anyone else that as you age your phycical and mental capabilities deteriorate. Some much sooner and at a much faster rate than others. That decline does not appear in most people until after age 50, some don't see any decline until into their 70's. I think that cognitive skills tests should be administered to anyone over age 50. It is no different than the current EKG policy which doesn't require guys under 35 to do them because they are worthless if your under that age just like cognitive skills tests are no good for guys under 50.

The problem we have now is the FAA medical is really only a test for blood pressure, hearing, EKG (which in most cases shows nothing important as far as predicting incapacitation), and vision. And even with that, you can still be a blind, deaf, walking heart attack time bomb and still get a 1st class medical. Now you can be a blind, deaf, walking heart attack time bomb that has very slow decision making abilities and needs a nap every 2 hours.

 

[pilotyip]

Until an extremely extensive cognitive and reflex test is done in order to pass a medical for these 60+ year old ancients, it would be foolhardy to increase this age yet again. Or even worse, have no limit at all. These old guys move like they are in slow motion, and their minds often times get like mush. They just can't respond appropriately in an at times, extremely fast paced and stressful environment.

Did we never have an-in-flight incapacitation prior to the age 65 rule? Was anything done then to reduce the age of a pilot? How about a rule we lower the retirement age to the age of the last pilot whom had the in-flight incapacitation. If he was 58 years old then that will be the new retirement. If the next guy is 48 that becomes the new retirement. That would really be the safest way to do it. Wouldn’t it? Age 60 was forced on the pilots back in 1958. ALPA was still fighting to get it repealed up until about 1970. This rule had nothing to do with safety; it was a deal between two W.W.II USAF Generals, AAL's C.R. Smith and Pete Quesada (sp.?) the first head of the FAA. It was to get rid of high paid pilots at the top of AAL the seniority list. It was done in the name of safety, because who can be against safety. It is like motherhood and patriotism.

If you cats think the Age 65 Rule is a burden, you should look at the ICAO signatories ... 13 of them have removed any age limitations.

I've been in the Middle Area and South America quite a bit these past three months and was astounded to learn and more and more ICAO signatory states are dropping age as a limit in total.

In 10 years, I bet, there will be no age limit in the U.S. Simply past the medical and (I believe) a cognative test.

So that's ok. At least for me. I'll square off with the best of em ... I'll work until I can't. It's not greed ... it's what I do.

TransMach

 

[chqflyer]

I wanna fly until they have to pry the yoke from my cold, dead fingers.



Not really. Entertaining thread though. Carry on!

 

[Gottafly74]

I wanna fly until they have to pry the yoke from my cold, dead fingers.



Not really. Entertaining thread though. Carry on!

Heard that one myself from a jumpseater IAH to EWR when I was a captain... Unfortunately he got his wish.. Not the way I wanna go!!

 

[Fubijaakr]

If you want cognative testing, then test EVERYONE. That's what I mean by one set of standards. Remember, when you tighten things up, perhaps YOU won't be able to pass.

 

[goahead]

Hi!

Pipejockey:

And, even with all the above liabilities, the pilots aged 60-65 have the safest accident record. So, what does that say about YOUR flying abilities?

You must have missed that stat class in college, grouping a very, very small group of guys isn't a comparision.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

You must have missed that stat class in college, grouping a very, very small group of guys isn't a comparision.

You must have missed geography class at college, age 65 have been around for a while all over the world, there are many pilots flying safely today over 60 years of age.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is only an issue due to the state of the industry today, if the airlines where hiring 80 pilots a month as before 9/11 you wouldn't hear a peep from anyone

 

[scoreboardII]

if the airlines where hiring 80 pilots a month as before 9/11 you wouldn't hear a peep from anyone

Which is what they would be doing if folks were retiring...

 

[Full of LUV]

Which is what they would be doing if folks were retiring...

ding...ding....ding....

 

[waveflyer]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is only an issue due to the state of the industry today, if the airlines where hiring 80 pilots a month as before 9/11 you wouldn't hear a peep from anyone

Dude - are you listening?
you're exactly right- the timing and the cold turkey implementation that guaranteed furloughs at most airlines is EXACTLY the beef most pilots have with this rule change.

 

[eaglesview]

Wave, you are correct, the cold turkey implementation is the problem. However most of the young guys take that frustration and start blaming the older guys.

 

[Truckdriver]

If you want cognative testing, then test EVERYONE. That's what I mean by one set of standards. Remember, when you tighten things up, perhaps YOU won't be able to pass.

Why don't I have to have an EKG now since I'm under 35? That test is a waste of money and time for anyone under age 35 so we are not required to do it. Same goes for cognitive skills testing. At age 50 your cognitive abilities MAY start to deteriorate. Before that 99.9% of the population does not experience a decline unless you were already lacking in cognitive skills. So doing that test for everyone down to the age of 23 for ATP applicants would be a waste of time and money for 27 years worth of medicals.

We don't have the same standards now with the EKG and first class medicals lasting longer for the young guys, and you don't need to have the same standard in cognitive skills testing. If your over age 50, I'm not calling you stupid, I'm just saying you are much more likely to lose cognitive reasoning skills than a guy who is 30. You know that as well as I do.

 

[spacecadet1]

I doubt one can draw many conclusions from the statistics (either way, more safe or less safe). There are just so many other factors, and frankly, there just aren't enough accidents for good statistics. Should there be cognitive testing for everyone? Maybe not a bad idea. We all age differently. But one thing is certain: cognition does not improve with age (just like physical ability). It is a sad inevitable fact. It may be that with modern aircraft (with all the warning systems and redundancy), the slight degradation in ability just isn't relevant (and can be compensated for with experience).
From my own personal experience in the airplane and the sim (no Chuck Yeager here), there are some older guys that should probably retire (some under 60, some above). But we help them out, the check airman give them some leeway out of respect, etc. And they plod on. We all have stories about these situations. I'm not talking about the usual good CRM were we catch each other's mistakes (regardless of age). I think most of us have seen this.

 

[The Prussian]

Which is what they would be doing if folks were retiring...

Which brings us to the main issue...

 

[The Prussian]

if the airlines where hiring 80 pilots a month as before 9/11 you wouldn't hear a peep from anyone

Which brings us to the main issue...

 

[Flopgut]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is only an issue due to the state of the industry today, if the airlines where hiring 80 pilots a month as before 9/11 you wouldn't hear a peep from anyone

I completely disagree. This thesis of yours is meaningless. Doesn't matter what the issue is when it's handled the way this one was. The membership's majority was against it, Prater refused to listen and engaged in misleading subterfuge to get his way. Then went on to avail it to a less than fully legitimate session of Congress and get it passed in the middle of the night. (we'll never know what he actually paid for that) He stabbed the recently retired in the back, he stabbed the junior in the back, and I don't think anyone doubts he would have stabbed his own mother in the back to get this done.

It doesn't matter what the issue is. When things get handled like this no one wins but the cake eaters. Of course the cake eaters aren't upset at all....

 

[waveflyer]

Wave, you are correct, the cold turkey implementation is the problem. However most of the young guys take that frustration and start blaming the older guys.

Are you saying that older pilots weren't the one's responsible for that. They lobbied with a sense of urgency: "EVERY DAY our most experienced pilots are forced to retire by a policy that is arbitrary and age discrimination!! Every Day! It's not fair- WE MUST CHANGE THIS NOW!!!

who was it saying those lines?

Who was lobbying for that with no thought to the effect it would have on the new hires who gave up good jobs and seniority to join their major?

 

[waveflyer]

So now- there is a group of young to middle aged pilots who are planning to lobby the FAA to make age 60 the max age to hold a Captain seat.

Thoughts?

My critique to my generation is a typical one- we let others take action then complain when our interests are not advocated. We let the political process happen to us- naively thinking that the older generation will look out for us-

We must act.

 

[pilotyip]

naively thinking

...............naively thinking ................We must act.

naively thinking that any pilot group will look out for any other pilot group, everyman for himself what is best for me is best for everyone.