Line Bidding VS PBS

[CFIse]

One thing to keep in mind - almost ALL the negatives of PBS are not an artifact of PBS.

The company builds the pairings, PBS or no PBS.

The company builds the lines. There is nothing to stop them building the lines with things like max FARs, min. time off etc. It's more transparent when they do that with regular lines instead of PBS, but they can do it none the less.

So the significant differences (as far as I can tell):
- no integration - I'm not sure why that would be a negative to people.
- lines built around vacation and training - I do see how "clever" "manipulation" of the line bidding process can get a more time off. On the other hand it can also lead to a loss of pay - which for some people is a bad thing.
- senior is better - which is just sort of one of those things - when you signed up you signed up for a seniority system - it's like complaining one of your classmates made captain before you because of the last digit of their social security number - it is what it is.

 

[rjacobs]

You can always bid for days off AROUND your vacation week - and since most peoples experience with PBS is that it's pretty good at giving you the days off you request you'd at least get some of the time.

But I hear what you're saying - the right line and the right seniority and line bidding can add a WHOLE lot to a vacation.

Bidding days off around your vacation the way it is at XJT now, would be a money loser. If our vacation touches a 22 hour 4 day on either side, both trips get dropped and we still get paid for 44 hours. We have lots of pay protection in our contract. So bidding your days off around vacation is just silly. Most people bid so that trips touch their vacation for the reason above.

 

[strega7]

Bidding days off around your vacation the way it is at XJT now, would be a money loser. If our vacation touches a 22 hour 4 day on either side, both trips get dropped and we still get paid for 44 hours. We have lots of pay protection in our contract. So bidding your days off around vacation is just silly. Most people bid so that trips touch their vacation for the reason above.

This was a perk that United pilots lost in their latest contract and they also had PBS. PBS will eliminate this very ineffective use of pilots because there will be no conflict with any awarded vacation time in a PBS bid. As stated before,with PBS you will get your awarded time off and bid for flying around it. This way you get the time off you requested and some other reserve guy doesn't have to cover flying that you should be flying. I think alot of us forget the fact that we were actually hired to fly airplanes each month and get wrapped up in how we can "stick it" to company. Yes managment did agree to the current way it's done, but you have to admit it is ineffecient, costly, and very much favors the pilot. Not that the last is bad, but there needs to be a balance.

We have PBS at my airline and I have been using it for a year. I love it! Granted I am top ten out of 60 in my base, but if you actually look at the pairings and be realistic about what you can hold, you can do well. The PBS interface is NOT very friendly. You must be very carefully about which layer you are working on and what pairings exist. I meet one of our pilots who was shocked that in additon to the four 4 day trips he wanted, PBS also added a 2 day that he did not want. He couldn't figure it out. When I asked what the credit was on the 4 day trips he wanted, he said they were about 18 hous. Well our minimum is 80 so when PBS gave him his 4 trips, there was still more flying that need to be assigned and the only legal option was a 2 day. With line bidding the company would tack on one or two locals before or after some of the 4 days. When I asked why he didn't bid for 4 day trips that paid at least 20 hours, he said there were not that many to chose from.

PBS rewards senority (good!) and those who are realistic and take the time to bid carefully. Even if you are junior and realistic you can get most of what you want. If you don't take the time, you could get hosed. Bid the days off you need or would like and then put in the trips you want. Then bid the days off you want and the type of trips you want. Then only bid off the days you want and let PBS put what whatever in between. You will have success with his method.

 

[turbinej]

PBS is only as good as you putting in what you want. At CAL we just went over to PBS and it has been a nightmare. We are going on our fourth month using is unless you are senior is bad. I though I would like it but right now not. Guys 20 years with the company that were getting the holidays off using the old paper packet are not getting them off now. Guys that are junior bidding 50 -60 % are bidding reserve during the holidays because there guaranteed to get them off. Senior guys that were doing transcons and South America flying are now doing BOS and MCO turns. Guys that normal bid 2 or three day trips were given 4 or 5 day trips. We are still learning and it will take time to work out all the kinks. One thing bad it vacation. It will build your line right up to you vacation, none of this drop the trip if it touches your vacation.

 

[Peter Sashell]

It is all about learning the system. If you understand how the program works and bid for things that you can realistically get it works great. Many senior pilots don't get what they want simply because they don't understand how to bid correctly.

 

[tomdav]

So would everyone agree that PBS is not the best system for small bidding groups. Managment has proposed this system but I have my doubts that it be any improvement on what we have. Our largest bidding group is around 75-80 crews with some in the 40-50 range.

 

[ERJFO]

I have never used PBS, but I do know that a normal bid with 2 line improvement windows and online trip trading has got to be better than PBS.

Also, I have a feeling that if most of our pilots wanted PBS they would bid down the Relief/Conversion/Build up lines, instead of bidding hard lines...

Right around 15 of 550 or roughly 2.7% of our pilots do this.

 

[turbinej]

pbs there is also minimum open time to trade with and little flying for reserves.

When we had paper lines there was plenty to trade with.

 

[MECH]

As a reserve pilot at CAL, PBS as cost me a day off every month. I always bid for a conflict between months. They would have to give me a break day.

It also took my weekends away. When bidding for lines I always got week ends off. Now none.

I am not a fan of PBS.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Also, I have a feeling that if most of our pilots wanted PBS they would bid down the Relief/Conversion/Build up lines, instead of bidding hard lines...

Right around 15 of 550 or roughly 2.7% of our pilots do this.

PBS is nothing like relief/conversion/build up lines. With PBS you have a lot more say in what your final schedule is. With relief lines, you are at the whim of the company and your seniority when it comes time to bid within the relief line system.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Just say no to PBS!!!

 

[ERJFO]

PBS is nothing like relief/conversion/build up lines. With PBS you have a lot more say in what your final schedule is. With relief lines, you are at the whim of the company and your seniority when it comes time to bid within the relief line system.

Maybe, but the bottom line is you cannot create any sort of schedule conflict, the system is designed to use crews efficentley - something I do not want - I like being FBO'ed, I like monthly schedule conflicts the give me extra days off, I like 30 hour overnights, I like setting up 30 in 7 situations so I get an extra day off.

With PBS there is no FBOing going on because the affected trips are removed, there are no vacation conflicts, there are no month to month conflicts. In short the ammount of days off you hold are dictated purley by your senority.

EVERY PILOT GROUP THAT HAS PBS HAS ADOPTED IT VIA CONCESSION. No airline management has said "no we don't want you to have PBS" - that sould be a red flag.

If any pilot at XJT were to want to trade what we have for PBS, they only motive I could see them having would be that their stupidity and lack of understanding hurts them from maximizing the current system, something that would hurt them with PBS anyway.

Pilots that say they like PBS better only say so because they either do not realize what they lost, or because they know they are only as good as what they negotiated - and they don't want to feel like they gave something up when in fact they have... BIG TIME.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Here's a question for those (P)BS lovers:

Unless you get the specific pairings that you bid...............how do you know that someone junior to you didn't get something that you should have? There's zero transparency with (P)BS.



AF

 

[ArcticFlier]

I thought FBO stood for Fixed Base Operator..............................


AF

 

[CFIse]

Here's a question for those (P)BS lovers:

Unless you get the specific pairings that you bid...............how do you know that someone junior to you didn't get something that you should have? There's zero transparency with (P)BS.



AF

Well you would have a contract provision that requires the final lines and pairings get published - like they do with line bidding. Now it would be much harder to check - but possible.

But I agree - there is significantly less transparency with PBS - you have to kind of trust the software. On the other hand I suggest it's harder for the company to specifically screw up the bid - they build the pairings and they build the overall parameters for pairing assignment, but to somehow go in there and force individual pairings to be assigned out of seniority order would seem a) hard and b) pointless.

 

[HoursHore]

If you are less than 50% with PBS you will never have a weekend off Again. Having had both I much prefer hard lines, esp the Vacation conflicts.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Well you would have a contract provision that requires the final lines and pairings get published - like they do with line bidding. Now it would be much harder to check - but possible.

I wonder where I can go and get one of those contract provisions at SKYW?

But I agree - there is significantly less transparency with PBS - you have to kind of trust the software. On the other hand I suggest it's harder for the company to specifically screw up the bid - they build the pairings and they build the overall parameters for pairing assignment, but to somehow go in there and force individual pairings to be assigned out of seniority order would seem a) hard and b) pointless.

It's not hard at all. Our bids close on the 17th. We don't get to see them until the afternoon on the 18th..................at the earliest. Many get to wait until the 20th, per our toilet paper policy manual. If it's beneficial to SGU, they'll do it..............regardless of seniority.

Again, how do we know that what we got is actually what we bid?


AF

 

[CFIse]

IAgain, how do we know that what we got is actually what we bid?

AF

You're right - it's harder to check, and if you never see the final lines it's impossible. Have you considered a ummm, oh I forget, you know, collection of people who bargain, a group of people who vote on a, oh what is it, ummm, oh yes contract. Oh I remember - have you considered a union.

Well here's a question for you - other than personally hating you, please give one reason WHY management would mess with the schedules built by PBS?