Line Bidding VS PBS

[VerticalSnap]

For people who have used both, what are the pro's and con's of each line bidding system and the pref bidding system?

 

[labbats]

One you control yourself, the other you trust management to do it for you.

 

[ArcticFlier]

One you control yourself, the other you trust management to do it for you.

Which is which? :nuts:


Just remember: Your line is no better than the pairings within. If you build a pretty mountain out of horse crap...............it's still a pile of shiite.



AF

 

[rickair7777]

The pairings are construcyed by the company in both cases...PBS cannot fix crappy pairings.

PBS
- More likley that you will get a specific day off (unless it is Christmas)
- You may be able to get better commutability
- More lines, less reserves
- Allows senior folks to cherry-pick the best trips
- Often less days off for low/mid seniority lineholders
- No "common sense" applied to line construction
- If you do not understand how PBS works, you will be sitting hot reserve on Christmas day, regardless of seniority.
- If you are not computer-savvy, you are screwed.

Paper Bid
- Lines are often fairly consistent
- More reserve lines
- Low/Mid-seniority folks often get a better deal than with PBS, because the top dogs can't cherry-pick ALL of the best trips.
- If you need a specific day off, you may have to go below your normal seniority (and line quality) to get it.
- Dumbasses can use this system succesfully.


PBS is probably the better system, but it might hurt mid-seniority guys.

 

[immelman79]

PBS seems to give a better balance within comparing senior to junior pilots. My experience is that some of the senior folks don't think to highly of it. My opinion is it works great if you know how to use it. There are a lot of tricks and ways you can screw yourself. It takes a lot of bidding periods to learn how to use it correctly. I love it though.

 

[blott]

7777 nailed it. But, with PBS, your company scheduling can adjust parameters in the computer at will. I.E. running a bid, looking at the results, not liking them, changing things in program, re-run it, etc. over and over-until they get what they want. This can potentially screw up a good system...

Over all I like the flexibility of PBS over the line bid system.

B

NOTE: if you work for a company with a bunch of bases-PBS won't work as well as a company with few bases... MUST have a large base for the PBS system to work at it's best...

 

[Dak]

The pairings are construcyed by the company in both cases...PBS cannot fix crappy pairings.

PBS
- More likley that you will get a specific day off (unless it is Christmas)
- You may be able to get better commutability
- More lines, less reserves
- Allows senior folks to cherry-pick the best trips
- Often less days off for low/mid seniority lineholders
- No "common sense" applied to line construction
- If you do not understand how PBS works, you will be sitting hot reserve on Christmas day, regardless of seniority.
- If you are not computer-savvy, you are screwed.

Paper Bid
- Lines are often fairly consistent
- More reserve lines
- Low/Mid-seniority folks often get a better deal than with PBS, because the top dogs can't cherry-pick ALL of the best trips.
- If you need a specific day off, you may have to go below your normal seniority (and line quality) to get it.
- Dumbasses can use this system succesfully.


PBS is probably the better system, but it might hurt mid-seniority guys.

Yea, what he said except vacation plays into this. Depends on the compant though. On PBS the line the company builds for you will work around the vacation but with a line you may be able to drop trips which conflict with your vacation.

 

[Steveair]

Pbs Sucks!

 

[HelloNewman]

Pbs Sucks!

PBS is hands down better! First of all you don't have to spend hours going through lines and pairings. It would take forever to shift through all the lines in the past. With PBS you have the chance to not have such a monotone schedule. You can work a combo of different trips instead of having to do the same trip every week. You get to meet a lot more crews since you don't fly with the same person all month.

You are on reserve a lot less under PBS. You get as much if not more days off than you did under the old system. Basically your senority gets you a lot more with PBS than it does with hard lines. Its a no brainer really. I spend about 30-40 minutes setting up my bid on PBS. its easy as pie. To go through all the hardlines can take a lot longer than that unless your quite senior.

For the most part you get to write your own line instead of bidding on one that is already made for you. You choose the credit, you choose what days off you want and usually you are able to get it too. Based on this its actually hardlines that suck! Hey I guess if you like living in a time warp doing the same trip over and over each month working with the same crews over and over then you might miss it.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Unless you're really senior, PBS is not likely to give you what you want. That said, regular lines mostly don't either. Truly, it won't affect me, but if I were junior, I'd rather seen the crappy line I was going to get (defensive bid) than wait until it was all over.

My issue with PBS is that it's like every pilot is on a relief (buildup) line. They will backfill your vacation and minimize your days off. Right now at ASA, we can turn 7 says of vacation into 14 days off by bidding right.

PBS is an efficiency and productivity tool for management. Pure and simple. That is the reason it was created. If you don't have it now, bringing it in is a concession.

 

[Steveair]

PBS is hands down better! First of all you don't have to spend hours going through lines and pairings. It would take forever to shift through all the lines in the past. With PBS you have the chance to not have such a monotone schedule. You can work a combo of different trips instead of having to do the same trip every week. You get to meet a lot more crews since you don't fly with the same person all month.

You are on reserve a lot less under PBS. You get as much if not more days off than you did under the old system. Basically your senority gets you a lot more with PBS than it does with hard lines. Its a no brainer really. I spend about 30-40 minutes setting up my bid on PBS. its easy as pie. To go through all the hardlines can take a lot longer than that unless your quite senior.

For the most part you get to write your own line instead of bidding on one that is already made for you. You choose the credit, you choose what days off you want and usually you are able to get it too. Based on this its actually hardlines that suck! Hey I guess if you like living in a time warp doing the same trip over and over each month working with the same crews over and over then you might miss it.

What are you smoking? Going through pairings in line packets killed time flying. Now I have to spend time more time on the computer to no avail. You were at least guaranteed to get a set schedule THAT YOUR SENIORITY COULD HOLD. PBS, I can't hold anything that I was. 2 day trips are a dream now. Weekends off or weekend day), no chance even with crappy trips. Trying to get one day off for a wedding or something... don't bid for it because it's the last thing you'll get. Death to PBS. I'd say 30% of people like PBS and they're all really senior. There are a few junior people that like it but they don't know any better or weren't around long enough to get a good schedule. Seniority means JACK with PBS.

 

[HelloNewman]

What are you smoking? Going through pairings in line packets killed time flying. Now I have to spend time more time on the computer to no avail. You were at least guaranteed to get a set schedule THAT YOUR SENIORITY COULD HOLD. PBS, I can't hold anything that I was. 2 day trips are a dream now. Weekends off or weekend day), no chance even with crappy trips. Trying to get one day off for a wedding or something... don't bid for it because it's the last thing you'll get. Death to PBS. I'd say 30% of people like PBS and they're all really senior. There are a few junior people that like it but they don't know any better or weren't around long enough to get a good schedule. Seniority means JACK with PBS.

How are you not getting 2 day trips? How long have you been here? I am getting 2 or 3 day trips regularly. I also get weekends off, most days off that I bid and around 15-16 days off a month with about 85-90 hrs credit. Pick up a little open time on one of my days off and I am sittin pretty. With the old system the schedules were usually built with the exact same days off. You also almost never had more than 3-4 days off in a row. With the new system you can set it up right and get a lot more blocks of days off in a row if you so desire.

You can also mix up what trips you do. Instead of having to bid an entire line of stand ups you can just throw a couple in there if you want instead of having to do a whole month of them. You can throw a few locals in there instead of having to do a whole month of them. I believe our schedules are much more flexible than they were in the past. Don't get me wrong hard lines had their advantages as well. The pre assignments are definately one of the downsides but there is always some sort of give/take. All in all the schedules I can make for myself are light years ahead of what I was getting with hard lines. For this reason I would never want to go back to the old way.

 

[Ponchus pilot]

It dependes on the pbs system in use. i hear Comair has a decent one. As a senior guy I like the fact that I can get a full schedule with block of 85 hrs and 19 days off. With PBS this would be less likely. As far as days off go most good companies have personal drops as well as trip trade days so you can pretty much get what you want. Management likes the PBS since it saves them money, I like the lines at my work place, if it aint broken why fix it.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

What are you smoking? Going through pairings in line packets killed time flying. Now I have to spend time more time on the computer to no avail. You were at least guaranteed to get a set schedule THAT YOUR SENIORITY COULD HOLD. PBS, I can't hold anything that I was. 2 day trips are a dream now. Weekends off or weekend day), no chance even with crappy trips. Trying to get one day off for a wedding or something... don't bid for it because it's the last thing you'll get. Death to PBS. I'd say 30% of people like PBS and they're all really senior. There are a few junior people that like it but they don't know any better or weren't around long enough to get a good schedule. Seniority means JACK with PBS.

I am in total agreement...Pre PBS I got more days off and more pay, plus I didn't constantly get stuck with "forced pairings" that I have no control over.

 

[Steveair]

How are you not getting 2 day trips? How long have you been here? I am getting 2 or 3 day trips regularly. I also get weekends off, most days off that I bid and around 15-16 days off a month with about 85-90 hrs credit. Pick up a little open time on one of my days off and I am sittin pretty. With the old system the schedules were usually built with the exact same days off. You also almost never had more than 3-4 days off in a row. With the new system you can set it up right and get a lot more blocks of days off in a row if you so desire.

You can also mix up what trips you do. Instead of having to bid an entire line of stand ups you can just throw a couple in there if you want instead of having to do a whole month of them. You can throw a few locals in there instead of having to do a whole month of them. I believe our schedules are much more flexible than they were in the past. Don't get me wrong hard lines had their advantages as well. The pre assignments are definately one of the downsides but there is always some sort of give/take. All in all the schedules I can make for myself are light years ahead of what I was getting with hard lines. For this reason I would never want to go back to the old way.

I bid 90 out of 170 and no love. I'm lucky to get 14 days off. 80-90 credit. Not user error - lots of ppl have looked it over. Days off I want? No way. I'm better off not bidding for days off at all that I need because if I do, there's no way. Mixing up trips was easy with the swapboard - especially if you could hold standups. PBS is no good to me and there are senior people - bidding within the top 20 that want stuff that junior people are getting. PBS has WAY too many bugs in it.

 

[rjacobs]

I believe the biggest obstacle to getting it here at XJT is the vacation issue. We are in the same boat as someone said earlier that we can turn a week into two or even three weeks by bidding our line with a 4 day touching each side of vacation, getting those trips dropped and getting paid for them. Then we can pick up trips during those three weeks as add pay. With pref-bid, your vacation would most likely get scheduled into your month without affecting any of your pairings. If this could be overcome, than I am all for PBS.

 

[jvrac]

Interesting posts. I guess you could say the grass is always greener on the other side. Thanks all for your input. I've been wanting to know more about pref bidding for a while now.

 

[Speedtape]

Interesting posts. I guess you could say the grass is always greener on the other side. Thanks all for your input. I've been wanting to know more about pref bidding for a while now.

I was told it is purely a concessionary issue the allows MGMT to save around 10% of labor costs. The savings don't appear out of thin air; they come right out of the pilot's pockets as compared to the present system.

It allows the company to work understaffed and drive to a set low staffing number, by taking the known flying and matching it to the existing pilot staffing! All trips will be assigned in the backfilling process! There is little open time and depending on the work rules in place, can make days off on every line the contractual minimum! The bidding process is a learning curve, and even when learned, what you are able to achieve depends on available staffing and known flying for that given month. There is no consistent predictability for each pilot.

Software selection is critical, although even the best and costlier programs are still evolving. Which one do you think your company will pick? Cheap is definitely not better in this arena! The pilots suffer as a result!

It resolves all conflicts including vacation and integration. Trips can be assigned and built around the conflicts, so that vacations will be a minimum and the month to month conflicts will always allow trips to be plugged in up to the FAR MAX. As compared to now, PBS prevents a pilot from creating the conflict through the bidding process to have days off during the integration period, which are not protected by contractual restrictions. The pilot loses!

The company has more tools to extract more work from less pilots. This is not always a bad thing if it only made your trip more productive, but across the board, it can be used to cover the known flying with less people and fewer reserves, which can tranlate into fewer days off and less consecutive days off.

It is complex, and there is no simple explanation for the process. It could be a torture tool and not pilot friendly.

Delta pilots friends have said they would not have accepted it on any of it's merits, but that their company wanted it and they were in concessionary negotiations. Apparently, they had it crammed down their throats to have a mutual deal and avoid a court imposed settlement in Bankruptcy.

Friends at Southwest and American are saying their respective managements want it. However, they have indicated that their Pilot Unions view it as concessionary and will not accept it under any condition! Their Unions have done their homework! That's good enough for me!

 

[rjacobs]

Don't believe on the AA side that the union doesn't want it. They do, if it is done properly, and I believe that it will be. Obviously, they don't if they cant get it done properly. When AA started recalling pilots they had just had their first meeting with APA negotiators and AA thought the negotiations would take like 4-6 months and when the union shook their heads no, they said, well were gonna start recalling.

 

[CFIse]

I believe the biggest obstacle to getting it here at XJT is the vacation issue. We are in the same boat as someone said earlier that we can turn a week into two or even three weeks by bidding our line with a 4 day touching each side of vacation, getting those trips dropped and getting paid for them. Then we can pick up trips during those three weeks as add pay. With pref-bid, your vacation would most likely get scheduled into your month without affecting any of your pairings. If this could be overcome, than I am all for PBS.

You can always bid for days off AROUND your vacation week - and since most peoples experience with PBS is that it's pretty good at giving you the days off you request you'd at least get some of the time.

But I hear what you're saying - the right line and the right seniority and line bidding can add a WHOLE lot to a vacation.

 

[CFIse]

One thing to keep in mind - almost ALL the negatives of PBS are not an artifact of PBS.

The company builds the pairings, PBS or no PBS.

The company builds the lines. There is nothing to stop them building the lines with things like max FARs, min. time off etc. It's more transparent when they do that with regular lines instead of PBS, but they can do it none the less.

So the significant differences (as far as I can tell):
- no integration - I'm not sure why that would be a negative to people.
- lines built around vacation and training - I do see how "clever" "manipulation" of the line bidding process can get a more time off. On the other hand it can also lead to a loss of pay - which for some people is a bad thing.
- senior is better - which is just sort of one of those things - when you signed up you signed up for a seniority system - it's like complaining one of your classmates made captain before you because of the last digit of their social security number - it is what it is.

 

[rjacobs]

You can always bid for days off AROUND your vacation week - and since most peoples experience with PBS is that it's pretty good at giving you the days off you request you'd at least get some of the time.

But I hear what you're saying - the right line and the right seniority and line bidding can add a WHOLE lot to a vacation.

Bidding days off around your vacation the way it is at XJT now, would be a money loser. If our vacation touches a 22 hour 4 day on either side, both trips get dropped and we still get paid for 44 hours. We have lots of pay protection in our contract. So bidding your days off around vacation is just silly. Most people bid so that trips touch their vacation for the reason above.

 

[strega7]

Bidding days off around your vacation the way it is at XJT now, would be a money loser. If our vacation touches a 22 hour 4 day on either side, both trips get dropped and we still get paid for 44 hours. We have lots of pay protection in our contract. So bidding your days off around vacation is just silly. Most people bid so that trips touch their vacation for the reason above.

This was a perk that United pilots lost in their latest contract and they also had PBS. PBS will eliminate this very ineffective use of pilots because there will be no conflict with any awarded vacation time in a PBS bid. As stated before,with PBS you will get your awarded time off and bid for flying around it. This way you get the time off you requested and some other reserve guy doesn't have to cover flying that you should be flying. I think alot of us forget the fact that we were actually hired to fly airplanes each month and get wrapped up in how we can "stick it" to company. Yes managment did agree to the current way it's done, but you have to admit it is ineffecient, costly, and very much favors the pilot. Not that the last is bad, but there needs to be a balance.

We have PBS at my airline and I have been using it for a year. I love it! Granted I am top ten out of 60 in my base, but if you actually look at the pairings and be realistic about what you can hold, you can do well. The PBS interface is NOT very friendly. You must be very carefully about which layer you are working on and what pairings exist. I meet one of our pilots who was shocked that in additon to the four 4 day trips he wanted, PBS also added a 2 day that he did not want. He couldn't figure it out. When I asked what the credit was on the 4 day trips he wanted, he said they were about 18 hous. Well our minimum is 80 so when PBS gave him his 4 trips, there was still more flying that need to be assigned and the only legal option was a 2 day. With line bidding the company would tack on one or two locals before or after some of the 4 days. When I asked why he didn't bid for 4 day trips that paid at least 20 hours, he said there were not that many to chose from.

PBS rewards senority (good!) and those who are realistic and take the time to bid carefully. Even if you are junior and realistic you can get most of what you want. If you don't take the time, you could get hosed. Bid the days off you need or would like and then put in the trips you want. Then bid the days off you want and the type of trips you want. Then only bid off the days you want and let PBS put what whatever in between. You will have success with his method.

 

[turbinej]

PBS is only as good as you putting in what you want. At CAL we just went over to PBS and it has been a nightmare. We are going on our fourth month using is unless you are senior is bad. I though I would like it but right now not. Guys 20 years with the company that were getting the holidays off using the old paper packet are not getting them off now. Guys that are junior bidding 50 -60 % are bidding reserve during the holidays because there guaranteed to get them off. Senior guys that were doing transcons and South America flying are now doing BOS and MCO turns. Guys that normal bid 2 or three day trips were given 4 or 5 day trips. We are still learning and it will take time to work out all the kinks. One thing bad it vacation. It will build your line right up to you vacation, none of this drop the trip if it touches your vacation.

 

[Peter Sashell]

It is all about learning the system. If you understand how the program works and bid for things that you can realistically get it works great. Many senior pilots don't get what they want simply because they don't understand how to bid correctly.

 

[tomdav]

So would everyone agree that PBS is not the best system for small bidding groups. Managment has proposed this system but I have my doubts that it be any improvement on what we have. Our largest bidding group is around 75-80 crews with some in the 40-50 range.

 

[ERJFO]

I have never used PBS, but I do know that a normal bid with 2 line improvement windows and online trip trading has got to be better than PBS.

Also, I have a feeling that if most of our pilots wanted PBS they would bid down the Relief/Conversion/Build up lines, instead of bidding hard lines...

Right around 15 of 550 or roughly 2.7% of our pilots do this.

 

[turbinej]

pbs there is also minimum open time to trade with and little flying for reserves.

When we had paper lines there was plenty to trade with.

 

[MECH]

As a reserve pilot at CAL, PBS as cost me a day off every month. I always bid for a conflict between months. They would have to give me a break day.

It also took my weekends away. When bidding for lines I always got week ends off. Now none.

I am not a fan of PBS.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Also, I have a feeling that if most of our pilots wanted PBS they would bid down the Relief/Conversion/Build up lines, instead of bidding hard lines...

Right around 15 of 550 or roughly 2.7% of our pilots do this.

PBS is nothing like relief/conversion/build up lines. With PBS you have a lot more say in what your final schedule is. With relief lines, you are at the whim of the company and your seniority when it comes time to bid within the relief line system.