liberal hypocrisy

[Typhoon1244]

I thought I said that he was inspired by the Bible, which he had probably read, at least in part, to try and dispute its content.

He more likely grew up reading the Torah. He was Jewish, you know.

In any case, Carl clearly saw the Torah, Bible, and Koran for what they are: ancient texts that provide great insight into the history of the human race.

 

[Timebuilder]

You're right, I knew he was Jewish and I was thinking of the five books of Moses, the Pentatuch, which are the same scripture with a different numbering system.

ancient texts that provide great insight into the history of the human race.

That is certainly a good start...

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Carl Sagan????

How does such an inconsistent idiot get so much admiration? Let's see, he doesn't believe in an intelligent creator of the universe, although he does believe the universe is extremely complex, and even more fascinating is how he would accept a specific message from space as proof of intelligent life existing on another planet What about the precise signal we have from God? I guess the 20 million volumes of information, that even the simplest mind contains, isn't specific enough. Never mind all the components of the anthropic principal that prove the precise complexity we as humans need to exist. I guess, according to Sagan, we just evolved from something simpler. So where did that simpler stuff evolve from? Also doesn’t he believe that the universe is eternal? Really? Not according to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the radiation echo discovered by Penzias and Wilson, the fact that the universe is expanding, and the great mass of matter the Hubble telescope picked up. Also according to Sagan evolution is a fact. It is a fact that that is not true. Evolution is a theory/religion, just like Christianity and every other view/religion out there.

It is truly an example of the blind leading the blind. Oh well to each his/her own. Just be sure your god is still standing when you die.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Carl Sagan????

How does such an inconsistent idiot get so much admiration?

You're right; you're much smarter than Carl was.

Actually, Sagan himself admitted that science is often mistrusted by the common citizen because of its inconstancy. Scientists, unlike the religious faithful, are willing to change their beliefs if the evidence requires. (Example: Egg yolks are good for you...no, we changed our minds. They're bad for you. No wait, they might be good...etc.) Most folks don't respond well to that kind of "fickleness," so instead they turn to solid unchanging fantasies (astrology, crystals, fundamentalist religion, etc.).

 

[Timebuilder]

When humans seek unchanging things, they can make them up, and then they are "fantasies". When they find them in the Bible, they are the guidance of God.

Just thought I'd put in my two cents there, bud!!

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Re: Re: Carl Sagan????

You're right; you're much smarter than Carl was.

And I guess you and Mr. Sagan think you are smarter than God

Anyways I never claimed to be smarter than Sagan. Although all that Sagan was, was just another guy that people put their trust into rather than accepting God. Go ahead follow him. I think he died in 1996, I wonder what he thinks about God now ? I guess someday we will all know who was right.

Actually, Sagan himself admitted that science is often mistrusted by the common citizen because of its inconstancy. Scientists, unlike the religious faithful, are willing to change their beliefs if the evidence requires. (Example: Egg yolks are good for you...no, we changed our minds. They're bad for you. No wait, they might be good...etc.) Most folks don't respond well to that kind of "fickleness," so instead they turn to solid unchanging fantasies (astrology, crystals, fundamentalist religion, etc.).

And no, unfortunately some "scientists" are not always willing to change their mind. Some have their mind made up that the possibility of God existing, the way the Bible explains it, is an impossibility or highly unlikely. I like what Thrice says about that (my quote below.)

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Re: Re: Carl Sagan????

And I guess you and Mr. Sagan think you are smarter than God...

Depends on what you mean by "God." Since it doesn't exist the way you think it does, I can't answer that question.

...all that Sagan was, was just another guy that people put their trust into rather than accepting God.

If you'd actually read anything Sagan wrote, you'd realize that your statement goes against everything Sagan believed in. This is like saying "it's obvious Jesus was advocating killing all Romans."

I understand what's going on: Carl Sagan advocated reason over blind faith...an idea that is very dangerous to mainstream religion.

Before you ask me, yes, I have read the Bible. Have you read The Demon Haunted World? You should. Aftere that, you can come back and tell us what you think of Carl.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Depends on what you mean by "God." Since it doesn't exist the way you think it does, I can't answer that question.

I guess that is a yes

If you'd actually read anything Sagan wrote, you'd realize that your statement goes against everything Sagan believed in. This is like saying "it's obvious Jesus was advocating killing all Romans."

I understand what's going on: Carl Sagan advocated reason over blind faith...an idea that is very dangerous to mainstream religion.

That is why he is an idiot, because he advocates reason, yet when a person sits down and reasons out the complexity of life and the incredible evidence that suggests God exist yet will not accept it they are putting a blind faith into their own god-less, or other-god centered, religion (like any atheist does.)

Do you really think I just accepted Christianity? I was not born into a Christian home and lived a rather rebellious lifestyle that opposed God before I came to know Jesus as my Lord and Savior. But at least I am smart enough to know more evidence suggests the possibility of God being a reality than not and choose to put my reasoned logic into God's hands rather than some guy who croaked back in 1996.

"If we can't think for ourselves, if we're unwilling to question authority, then we're just putty in the hands of those in power. But if the citizens are educated and form their own opinions, then those in power work for us. In every country, we should be teaching our children the scientific method and the reasons for a Bill of Rights. With it comes a certain decency, humility and community spirit. In the demon-haunted world that we inhabit by virtue of being human, this may be all that stands between us and the enveloping darkness."
-Carl Sagan (Demon Haunted World)

I agree with this. I should question the authority that rules our public schools. I should be allowed to pray in a public school with a teacher if I want to. I should question the evolutionary theory that some teachers are force-feeding the students at high-schools and universities. Also, I shouldn't be given an F or have to compromise my beliefs about God because public education wants me to buy some bunk theory.

Also didn't Sagan say this:?
“…the neurochemistry of the brain is astonishingly busy, the circuitry of a machine more wonderful than any devised by humans.”
-Carl Sagan (Cosmos, 278)

So that means our brains are more complex, according to Sagan, than the CRJ you fly. And you and Mr. Sagan seem to credit the existence of our brains to chance and the evolutionary process. I guess your CRJ is really just the result of all the parts at the Bombardier factory (or whoever makes those things) being exposed to a tornado that ripped through there and arranged all the parts specifically and precisely to work together and function how they need to. Then they just sat there for a few thousand million billion years, and instead of rusting they were able to produce the end result of the Cl-65 without any help from an intelligent designer/creator. Where is the logic? There is none. And this is supposed to be a smart person you are trusting with your soul? Once again, the blind leading the blind. Here is a quote you might have missed last time you read the Bible:

1 Corinthians 1:20
20So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made them all look foolish and has shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense. 21Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe. 22God's way seems foolish to the Jews because they want a sign from heaven to prove it is true. And it is foolish to the Greeks because they believe only what agrees with their own wisdom. 23So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended, and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense. 24But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles,[4] Christ is the mighty power of God and the wonderful wisdom of God. 25This "foolish" plan of God is far wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God's weakness is far stronger than the greatest of human strength.

If you wish to follow the wisdom of man rather than God, at least read Jastrow. He seems a little bit more intelligent than Sagan. At least he truly did consider all the possibilities, not just what seemed to fit his utopian views.

 

[Typhoon1244]

...when a person sits down and reasons out the complexity of life and the incredible evidence that suggests God exist...

fLYbUDDY, if you seriously think what you just described qualifies as "reason," then there's no point in discussing this any further. Reminds me of the "chemtrail" thread...

By the way, congratulations on quoting Sagan out of context so you could use his words against him. Nice technique.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

fLYbUDDY, if you seriously think what you just described qualifies as "reason," then there's no point in discussing this any further. Reminds me of the "chemtrail" thread...

I was starting to think the same way about your posts, I guess we shall meet again at some other thread then .

 

[Typhoon1244]

So how was it out of context?

He was pointing out the fact that the human brain is more complex than anything we humans have created so far. He was not suggesting that the brain must have been created by something superhuman.

From The Demon Haunted World:
My parents died years ago. I was very close to them. I still miss them terribly. I long to believe that their essence, their personalities, what I loved so much about them, are--really and truly--still in existence somewhere.

There's a part of me--no matter how childish it sounds--that wonders how they are.

In other words, Carl wanted to believe, much as I do. It would be much more...comfortable if there was a Christian "God" who was out there waiting for me. But I'm not willing to surrender the mind "He" allegedly gave me...which is what any good person of faith mustdo. I've said it a hundred times: I believe "God" is much more astounding than anything you or T.B. could possibly imagine...or anything the Bible can depict.

There's no evidence that God (with a big "G") exists. Nevertheless, I am forced to consider the possibility that he does exist, and that the evidence for it has not yet been discovered.

That's called "open minded." Are you willing to entertain the idea that he might not exist? Again, if the answer is "no," then there's no point in going any further.

 

[Typhoon1244]

HEY! Now you're deleting your posts! That's not fair!

 

[fLYbUDDY]

HEY! Now you're deleting your posts! That's not fair!

I deleted it because I thought you were calling me out on taking the "demon world" quote out of context, which I intentionally did (take out of context) to imply sarcasm. I didn't think you were talking about the quote from cosmos, so since you responded.....

He was pointing out the fact that the human brain is more complex than anything we humans have created so far. He was not suggesting that the brain must have been created by something superhuman.

Exactly. He should have been implying that. He is missing the point of his own statement, and so are you, and both of you are indulging in irrational logic (at best.) If it wasn't created by something superhuman, but is far more complex than anything humans have created (aka intelligent design) it would seem irrational to assume we just came to be out of randomness occurring in the cosmos. A rational person should assume that life (or at least the component of life known as the human brain) was the result of an intelligent designer. Not chance or just simply the work of the "cosmos." And since he wasn't there when the universe came to be (or whatever he thinks about the begining) he is making an illogical assumption (or at least a general assumtion) and not a factual observation. I hope you don't take his assumptions to the grave, but anyway as you already said this is turning into a folly.

In other words, Carl wanted to believe, much as I do. It would be much more...comfortable if there was a Christian "God" who was out there waiting for me. But I'm not willing to surrender the mind "He" allegedly gave me...which is what any good person of faith must do. I've said it a hundred times: I believe "God" is much more astounding than anything you or T.B. could possibly imagine...or anything the Bible can depict.

Really? It is comforting to know a God exists that can only be accessed through a specific, spelled-out way, and many of my friends and family that won't accept that specific way are going to go to hell? Yeah makes me feel all warm an cuddly . Also it is easy to be a Christian right? Just ask the family that got caught facilitating an underground church in the far-east, and were run over by a steam roller that would stop every few seconds so they could be given the opportunity to deny Christ before they were ultimately killed. Yeah this Christianity thing is for the week-minded I guess . Oh well, whatever . So why is the Bible so non-astounding? Why is it a limiting factor in your acceptance of God? That is really why we are going nowhere. I am willing to accept the fact that God might not exist the way I have found him (that is where the faith comes in), but you are not willing to accept God in a certain way, therefore your logic is contradictory. You will not consider a very real possibility, as you have clearly stated in the above post. We are both men of faith (not fact), but I challenge you (friendly of course) that your faith is much more of the “blind” nature than mine (not in arrogance either.)

 

[fLYbUDDY]

I did some editing.

So if you are going to hold me to anything from the above re-read my last post. I cleared up the "context" of what I was trying to say. Sorry for being difficult

 

[Typhoon1244]

Let me put it this way: if I am the product of a God who chose to give me amazing powers of perception, then remove all evidence of His existence, then he's a trickster god who isn't worthy of my worship.

However...

If the "Purpose of Life" is to "find God," then I think we're both going to get there...but we're going to do it by different routes, one based on faith, and one based on learning.

(I'll let you decide which is which...)

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Let me put it this way: if I am the product of a God who chose to give me amazing powers of perception, then remove all evidence of His existence, then he's a trickster god who isn't worthy of my worship.

First of all it was us that choose to disassociate with God. And the trickster is Satan. So the only reason some people can not see all the evidence of God is because they choose not to look. That doesn't mean evidence of His existence wasn't there all-along. People would rather invest in the sedating pain-killing lies Satan has offered human kind and remain in darkness and accuses God of being the wrong one.

However...

If the "Purpose of Life" is to "find God," then I think we're both going to get there...but we're going to do it by different routes, one based on faith, and one based on learning.

Once again you are only allowing two possibilities and violating your original argument of flexibility.

No the purpose of life isn't to find God, it is to express your love, or lack of love, to God by being faithful, or refusing to be faithful, to Him and trusting, or not trusting, Him above and beyond anything else. If you choose to construct your own image or view about the way things are to be done then most likely you have chosen, whether aware of it or not, to not love God. What if He is real in the way that the Bible has said it? Why is it so abstract for some people? I guess it is all found in the heart of human nature, which says it would rather go to hell than accept God. I mean that is where the human heart (including mine) resides before Jesus enters the picture. If you would ever consider Jesus then you will see why God is such a reality to true Christians--because their life has been touched by the maker of the cosmos, the maker of them, and this has ultimately proved their love to God. There is no other way to do this according to God, unless of course He is just a trickster. Once again we shall see someday.

BTW- I don’t mean any disrespect to you or any of the beliefs you have. I am glad you take the time to discuss with me such an important issues/topic. So thanks!

 

[Typhoon1244]

Once again you are only allowing two possibilities and violating your original argument of flexibility.

No, dammit, I'm allowing an infinite number of possibilites! I just happen to be talking about yours and mine.

We've already discussed this...don't you remember anything I said?