Letterman "Top 10" NWA overflight

[Whataburger]

I know we all make mistakes, but I thought this was pretty funny:

10. Bunch of fat guys seated on the right side of the plane made us vector east.
9. We get paid by the hour.
8. Mapquest always takes you the long way, am I right, people?
7. Tired of that show-off Sullenberger getting all the attention.
6. You try steering one of those airplanes after eight or nine cocktails.
5. Wanted to catch the end of the in-flight movie.
4. Activating autopilot and making occasional P.A. announcements is exhausting.
3. According to our map, we only missed our target by half an inch.
2. For a change, we decided to send luggage to the right city and lose the passengers.
1. Thought we saw balloon boy.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Sad. Everyone thought pilots were God after the Hudson, and now we're back to being perceived as idiots again.....

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Isn't it such a nice feeling that the profession you worked so hard to get into is just a punch line to the rest of the country?

 

[DIAMONDDD]

2. "They were on the job and were too busy cheating on their wives to notice...well, maybe we shouldn't bring up cheating on wives"

1. "They thought they would chase some tail out to the east even though they are marr.....well, maybe we shouldn't bring up chasing tail while being married."

 

[Captzaahlie]

wonder how long their suspension will be?

 

[Kharma Police]

Isn't it such a nice feeling that the profession you worked so hard to get into is just a punch line to the rest of the country?

I don't think you should be offended with jokes from a d0uchebag like Letterman.

 

[Tweaker]

I don't think you should be offended with jokes from a d0uchebag like Letterman.

That!

 

[Lear70]

wonder how long their suspension will be?

Permanent.

The FAA revoked the certificates today and I've heard from unofficial sources that their termination letters were issued this morning.

 

[Headfake14]

naw...they'll get they're jobs back. What FAR says you can't have a laptop open...could just as well been the USA Today. Punishment doesn't fit the crime. They shouldn't be any kind of scape goats.

 

[Slick]

Sad. Everyone thought pilots were God after the Hudson, and now we're back to being perceived as idiots again.....

That's because some pilots are God-like,....and some pilots are idiots.

.

 

[Diesel-9]

So what should the sentence be for landing on a taxiway? At least as much.

 

[Whataburger]

That's because some pilots are God-like,JUST ASK THEM!!....and some pilots are idiots.AND HAVE NO CLUE.

.

Pilots are an interesting bunch aren't they?

 

[100-1/2]

Exactly, how was safety compromised?

What FAR Specifically was violated?

What Company Policy was breached?

So, now every aircraft that goes NORDO is "Careless and Wreckless"?

I don't care if they were doing each other or pantypopping the Senior FA.
If you ALPA nutjobs don't get in there and fight for these guys' reinstatement,
you are effectively deferring any future controversy to the mercy of the most
unchecked and unconstitutional powers of a rogue agency known as the FAA.

"Guilty" until proven "Almost Innocent but still,'Mostly' Guilty".

Disturbing. Very Disturbing.

100-1/2

 

[kmox29]

Exactly, how was safety compromised?

Really?

What FAR Specifically was violated?

91.13

What Company Policy was breached?

I'm not certain, but it appears Delta has a "no laptop" policy in the flight deck.

So, now every aircraft that goes NORDO is "Careless and Wreckless"?

Hardly. But I think this case had more aggrivating factors than simply going NORDO.

I don't care if they were doing each other or pantypopping the Senior FA.
If you ALPA nutjobs don't get in there and fight for these guys' reinstatement,
you are effectively deferring any future controversy to the mercy of the most
unchecked and unconstitutional powers of a rogue agency known as the FAA.

I can tell you dislike the FAA. But what other outcome would you expect? Suspension? Maybe. Unfortunatly for the flight crew, this thing went public in a HUGE way. I think revocation was the only action that was going to be acceptable.

 

[Bringupthebird]

So at what point do you get your license revoked? Being out of radio contact for 20 minutes? 10 minutes? 5 minutes? We are one step away from incarcerating pilots for mistakes like they do in may parts of the world. The difference is, in many of those places due process is still in vogue.

Bring on flight deck video monitoring. The system would come to an immediate and grinding halt if pilots did not have the discretion to use their judgement to keep the operation moving.

 

[kmox29]

So at what point do you get your license revoked? Being out of radio contact for 20 minutes? 10 minutes? 5 minutes?

They didn't have their licenses revoked becuase they were simply NORDO. It that were the case, the FAA would be swamped with emergency revocations.

I'm pretty certain the REASON they were NORDO and the fact that no one monitored the aircraft for a good 1 to 1.5 hours are the reasons for the revocation.

 

[Lear70]

I agree. Being out of radio contact and having that serious of a loss of situational awareness for OVER AN HOUR, resulting in the overflight of their DESTINATION, and then ANOTHER 100+ miles, preparing to scramble fighters in a response to a possible terrorist attack, re-routing dozens of aircraft not knowing what the flight was going to do next, and probably putting them well into their reserve fuel isn't exactly a MINOR infraction. Where's the cut off for when it becomes an unacceptable safety violation? 10 minutes into your reserve fuel? 30? Flame out?

Reckless? Not necessarily, because it wasn't deliberate. Careless? You betcha, and I'll be VERY shocked if they get their jobs back now that the flying public in general is aware of it. Being the first known "Laptop violation" you can bet the FAA will want to set an example hard and fast as well.

Not to mention that if there WAS a policy about laptop usage on the deck and those pilots WILFULLY VIOLATED it while jeopardizing safety at the same time, they will be hard pressed to win in arbitration. To win a termination grievance you have to prove that the company was WRONG in their accusation (i.e. it didn't happen like they accused), or that the policy for which they were fired was non-contractual, or that other crewmembers aren't being held to the same standard, whether it's pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, gate agents, whoever and it's therefore not a terminatable offense unless they terminate EVERYONE who does it.

In this case, it's gonna be a tough one for ALPA to win, or even THEIR OWN attorneys fighting for the licenses... I'm very thankful for the F/A who called up. Another 20 or 30 minutes, depending on their contingency fuel status, and they could have been in real jeopardy. Very not cool.

 

[kmox29]

Lear,

Good post. I would add that it wouldn't be too hard to prove that they were intentionally not monitoring the flight and its progress. I think that's what got them the revocation. The FAA felt that their actions were not unintentional as they willfully violated company policy and knowingly engaged in activity that was not directly related to the flight.

Just my thought.

 

[Lear70]

KMOX, you're right, but on a 3+ hour flight, no one stares at the instruments the entire time, you monitor.

People eat, read, and yes, even getting on your laptop wouldn't be out of the realm of reasonability IF it wasn't BOTH crewmembers and IF you weren't so completely distracted you pretty much STOPPED FLYING THE PLANE COMPLETELY!

If they had been on their laptops but hadn't lost situational control, it's NO different than taking 20 minutes to eat a crew meal or something else non-essential to flight. It's the way they did it, BOTH of them not flying the plane that's going to likely cook their bacon here.

 

[bizicmo]

Normally I don't think the letterman top 10 is funny, but I thought this one was pretty good. I actually laughed at it.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I get the part about losing situational awareness. What I don't get is when did mobs and pitchforks replace due process and innocent until proven guilty.

What overriding social need was served by a public emergency revocation?

Why have ASAP? All it does is deny the public it's right to justice!

 

[kmox29]

Lear,

Once again, I agree with you. I remember my flying days before I came to the dark side of the force. On those long flights you find ways to keep occupied. I think you hit the nail on the head when you wrote about BOTH pilots not flying the plane.

 

[kmox29]

What overriding social need was served by a public emergency revocation?

Why have ASAP? All it does is deny the public it's right to justice!

I don't know that an "overriding social need" was served by the revocation. I definately think there was careless operation of an aircraft involved and you might be able to argue reckless operation. The FAA has the right for emergency revocation when public safety is involved.

That being said, when the FAA does revoke a certificate, they usually have GOOD reason to do so. Now, with the political/public climate after Colgan, I think politics had some part in the revocation, but I also think there's more to the story than we're hearing.

ASAP is a great program. However, I'm 99% certain that ASAP would not have protected them. There are certain criteria that must be met with ASAP, one of which is no 'intentional' disregard for safety. I doubt that they could get past that one.

 

[Av8tor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5slRZr7zM4

 

[GuinessGuy]

With the "laptop use" being the cornerstone for there lapse in SA, a search warrant and a computer nerd can look to see if the laptops were even on, and what they were looking at..........the laptop story and the fear of no cockpit laptop use will go away......they were saw'in some serious logs.........
If they were smarter, they should have fessed up, said we had both fallen asleep due to fatigue. If they had an easy schedule and the lack crew rest was bogus, then claim they both suffer from sleep apnea and are trying to work with a disability.
The FAA does not require sleep apnea to be divulged or discused on a medical.

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

I DO think this is the FAA attempting to make a bold statement to the public about how 'serious' they are about safety. I also think the punishment is likely out of line given the outcome. Still, guys were buffoons no matter how you slice it, and the Letterman stuff was funny.

I'm Bald, from NJ [originally], and a Pilot. I'm open season for jokesters if anything ever comes my way...

 

[erichartmann]

I think Lear hit it on the head. It wasn't the fact that they were NORDO per se, it was the length of time they were NORDO, the fact that they had so lost SA that they apparently did not recognize they were NORDO until an FA attracted their attention, the fact that they were so out of the loop that they over flew their destination without realizing it while NORDO, etc. One has to wonder exactly how far they would have gone had the FA not intervened.

One could argue that they didn't intentionally lose SA, but by intentionally engaging in an activity that they arguably should have know might harm their SA I think it can be argued their actions were, in fact, careless and reckless, thus the ER.

We might also consider that while these guys got a big scare, and a suspension might sufficiently reinforce it for them, the ER is get the attention of the rest of us as to how serious this situation was and how much worse it could have been.

Nobody got hurt, but it certainly wasn't because of the professionalism and skill of these two

 

[rudder]

Every single pilot has on at least one occasion lost radio contact due to frequency change issues.

Some pilots have commenced descent to destination late due to distractions, inattention, or poor planning.

Few if any pilots (until now) have overflown destination completely oblivious to their position.

The only technology that should have been contributory to this incident is a misprogrammed FMS. Apparently by the crew's own admissions that was not the case. I would suggest that their own statements, whether factual or not, have been their undoing.

 

['72Gremlin]

I'm just curious: What is jetBlue's policy on laptops in the cockpit. Aren't they issued to each pilot?

 

[Vingus]

Only one laptop allowed to be used at a time.