Lets talk unions....

[ShutupandFly]

Well...most of the 30 people voted for one. What part of THAT is so hard for you to grasp?

A doctor is a "business" too. DIY brain surgery is not a good idea. (We'll consider you "Exhibit A")

A lawyer is a "business". DIY defense for criminal/tort cases is not a good idea.

A union is a "business". DIY contract negotiations is not a good idea.

Can you grasp any of that?

When I need medical advice I go see a doctor

When I need Legal advice I go see a Lawyer

When I talk to a company about my terms of employment I do not want another dispatcher negotiating my future. That's what we have, one dispatchers trying to get back at the company and two that don't even work there. Then I have to swallow the fact that even though it's my future, as long as I am at the company, that they are discussing I am not alowed to have any idea what they are talking about. Top that off with when I tell the shop steward I can't support a contract that will cut my pay all I get is "I was very dissapointed with your letter. You are going to have to wait to see what's in the TA".

So Captian OCD boy can you grasp any of these concepts. How about this one, out of 33 dispatchers that were able to vote, 17 voted for the union http://kas.cuadra.com/star/images/nmb/039.pdf. I'll help you with the math, that's a one vote margin. Two weeks later the vote would have went the other way and the union support has continued dwindeling.

 

[81Horse]

... out of 33 dispatchers that were able to vote, 17 voted for the union ... that's a one vote margin.

In America today, this is considered a mandate.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Well.. yes... most of the 30 voted for it. Most of them have left now. They thought management was being unfair.

More Americans voted for Al Gore for President than his opponent. You're fortunate that the majority won in your case! It ain't always so.

Thank you for at least understanding that the determination for a union is made by the workers themselves. If you (the collective "you") decide to get rid of your union, it will be done by a vote of the membership. The majority will decide in that case too.

As long as they thought your management was being unfair, they voted the way they did.

They weren't being unfair.

So I'll assume you voted "no" to the union? If so, good for you! You lost. There have a been a few elections in the past several years that have had an adverse impact on my career, but I accept them as the the "will of the body".

Bush got a majority of the votes cast in 2004. Think everybody has the same opinion of him right now?

Your shop might have a different opinion of your management right now, but unless they take some action (The Department of Labor has the gouge), it makes no difference.

As I said, you do NOT know the full story. You continue to blindly defend a group you don't know.

Not at all. I don't care what the circumstances were at your shop. That ain't my issue. I support unionism. My comments (other than the shots I've taken at you for being a mouth-breather who believes all arguments for/against unions exist within your own personal experience) have been about unions. In fact, I was lured to this topic by it's title. Maybe you should scroll up and read it again...so you'll understand what we're discussing here.

Unions are NOT perfect organizations. Managements aren't either. I prefer unions because it's a level playing field...just like the Serengeti, where the cheetahs eat the gazelles...and never the other way around. Unions give the gazelles better odds. There is strength in numbers.

It's pretty clear to me that you won't understand that analogy because you "don't work on the Serengeti", and you're "not a gazelle". Anybody who doesn't work in your shop couldn't POSSIBLY understand about unions!

Scene.

 

[AC560]

promote an anti-union agenda.

I think you clearly misunderstand, business people like unions. It is pretty simple to manipulate them and in most cases the unions are more about making $$$ then the companies they are trying to fight.

My intent isn't to spread anti-union rhetoric just to point out that anyone with half a brain can look at the state of this industry and the people who have gotten screwed the most are the union employees. In reading this board it appears the only pilots making the fat $$$ and reasonably happy are the corporate pilots (non-union).

By all means keep waving the union flag, it makes my stock options go up.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think you clearly misunderstand, business people like unions. It is pretty simple to manipulate them and in most cases the unions are more about making $$$ then the companies they are trying to fight..

It ain't working, Mr. Icahn. Maybe we can getting Freddy Smith on here to talk about how much he loves unions. Or Francisco could tell us...

My intent isn't to spread anti-union rhetoric just to point out that anyone with half a brain can look at the state of this industry and the people who have gotten screwed the most are the union employees. In reading this board it appears the only pilots making the fat $$$ and reasonably happy are the corporate pilots (non-union).

If you'd have typed that on this Forum on September 10, 2001, you'd have been thoroughly taunted by everyone here. This industry, and this profession, rises and ebbs just like all the others. Not a lot of anti-union traction when many of us were pulling down $300k. Then some events took place that put pressure on that. They weren't caused by the pilots, the dispatchers, or anybody's union. They happened. So it's Open Season on uinons, 'cause HEY!...it's all their fault!

By all means keep waving the union flag, it makes my stock options go up.

And please continue your amoral focus on the best way to hammer employees.

It fits.

 

[ShutupandFly]

Lets take this discussion in this direction. Ok so you have a union and you get that first contract through. What are the members of the union supposed to do when the cost of living goes through the roof and your contract is not up for another 4 years? In my case I had to leave my last airline when I could no longer afford to live in the area. The ones that are still there are having to pick up second jobs or beg for overtime to make ends meet. But hey they go back to the table in 2009.

 

[Gimpy]

I don't care what the circumstances were at your shop. That ain't my issue. I support unionism.

Union's are good if they work right. However, in this industry, at this time, with this administration, a lot of them suck pretty bad.

What I don't think you understand is the fact that this is a dispatcher forum, with a dispatcher's perspective of unions. You being an ALPA pilot have a different perspective. Being one of hundreds or even thousands of line pilots far away from management gives you a great view of unions. 405, as an example, in one of 30 or so dispatchers with management breathing down his neck at any time. Reading his posts, it sounds like it sucks.

Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

 

[405]

Union's are good if they work right. However, in this industry, at this time, with this administration, a lot of them suck pretty bad.

What I don't think you understand is the fact that this is a dispatcher forum, with a dispatcher's perspective of unions. You being an ALPA pilot have a different perspective. Being one of hundreds or even thousands of line pilots far away from management gives you a great view of unions. 405, as an example, in one of 30 or so dispatchers with management breathing down his neck at any time. Reading his posts, it sounds like it sucks.

Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

Apparently, since our massive majority of 17 people voted it in, I'm supposed to just take it as the "will of the body" and watch my office take a massive sh*t. It has definitely had an adverse impact on us but I guess I'm supposed to sit back and let it happen since it's the "will of the body".

F*ck being a passive follower like Occam.

ALPA doesn't represent the entire airline industry.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Union's are good if they work right.

As opposed to all the things in the world that are good if they work incorrectly?

However, in this industry, at this time, with this administration, a lot of them suck pretty bad.

Ahh! So maybe the environment has more control over our fortunes than unions?

I'm not promoting unions as kryptonite or penicillin. I believe workers can achieve more collectively than they can individually. In bad times that "achievement" may be merely that they lose less.

What I don't think you understand is the fact that this is a dispatcher forum, with a dispatcher's perspective of unions.

Are you going to police the pilots that are posting on the F/A Forum? The Regional pilots posting on the Majors Forum? The Civilian pilots posting on the Military Forum? Lieutenants posting on the General Forum?

I'm offering an opinion on unions. My profile should make it clear that I'm not a Dispatcher. Since I'm just a pilot, you don't have to listen to me. (Pretend I'm one of your flights and I'm in Holding! :laugh: )

You being an ALPA pilot have a different perspective. Being one of hundreds or even thousands of line pilots far away from management gives you a great view of unions. 405, as an example, in one of 30 or so dispatchers with management breathing down his neck at any time. Reading his posts, it sounds like it sucks.

Good point. It also sounds like he's not happy, and chooses to blame the union for it.

Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

Welllllllllll. I've been in a union for many years now. I know something about what they can and can't do. 405 hasn't been in one for very long, and is judging unions based on his limited experience.

Maybe you could send him the same advice?

 

[405]

405 hasn't been in one for very long, and is judging unions based on his limited experience.

Maybe you could send him the same advice?

I don't want to be part of a business making money off of me that does nothing for me. If you want to call it "limited experience", fine.

A union is a business, Occam. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

I refuse to pay dues to get nothing in return. Like I said ALPA may work for thousands of airplane drivers like yourself, but what is a union going to do for 30 people? Absolutely nothing.

Like he said, put yourself in our shoes. You're incapable of doing that though.