Let the WitchHuny Begin: "Wall St STILL Flying Corp Jets"--AP

[B19 Flyer]

I was gonna add to the thread, but, well put X-Rated! After several years on FI, finally someone put into words EXACTLY how it works!!! Or, how it SHOULD work!

7777, I know you say you're trying to learn from B19, but the above post from X-Rated is it in a nutshell.

If you go back and review B19's history of posts, you'll quickly see a pattern. Basically, every problem that every company faces is the union's fault.

No. That is not what I have ever stated. What I have clearly stated is that bringing a union into a company will not benefit the company and will place a company in jeapardy when the times get tough. I have stated that a union is not the fix all, and that unions restrict company growth and create turmoil from within, hence the statement "be careful what you ask for."



If you try to point out problems at companies that don't have unions, you'll only get silence from B19.

Every company has problems, but I have stated ad nauseum, that when problems appear at companies, those that have unions are unable to react quickly due to restrictive CBAs that limit growth and tamper with the business plan. As an example, how may times over the years have mergers been stopped or successful programs such as ASAP been torpedoed because of unions? All the time. Doesn't happen in non-union shops. I've used the example of cameras on the flight deck. Won't happen because of unions even though it's been a recomendation of the NTSB for years. Never get silence from me, but it's hard to respond to every single post I get in the short period of time I have when I log-in.

If you try to point out the main factors that cause company's problems that have unions (soaring fuel costs, costly govn't regs, competition from LCC's, etc....) he'll ignore those and STILL blame the unions for all those company's woes. It's always the evil unions that won't bend.

I blame unions for the inability for a company to adjust it's business plan due to a CBA. All air carriers have operating certificates and pilots. Those that have unions bear higher costs and don't have the ability to adjust to the market place and economy.




Of course, B19 absolutely will not address why workers' contracts should be voided or altered during hard times, but management should have their contracts honored, right up to and including huge bonuses, even if the company goes under. Shows you how much he really values the worker.

Once again, I've addressed this many times. First, it's well known what Grinstein did, but even more than that, a contract offered by the board to a CEO is not the same as one that is negotiated by a union. A CEO is offered a contract to attract a qualified person and retain their services in order to best serve and run the company. A union contract doesn't and isn't negotatied that way.

I'm glad you're keeping an open mind. And I will openly admit that a union is not necessarily the answer to every problem encountered by workers at a company. But start reviewing B19's posts, and periodically re-read X-rated's post above, and you'll see there isn't much to be learned from B19. He truly believes management are the only ones who can make a company work.

Once again, ad nauseum. I have constantly stated, if you are not happy with management, go be one and get off your butt. If you are smart enough to hold the company hostage and bring a union onto the property, you must also be smart enough to enter the world of management and fix the perception of what is wrong. I've seen many chief pilots (that were radical union supporters) come off the line and discover it's just not that easy and turn their backs on the union once the reality sets in.


And they are responsible for everything. Of course, if I taxi into the grass or mud, I wonder who in management is responsible? Whose career is on the line? Hint: it's not who B19 would like you to believe it is (management).

Thanks X-Rated!! for one of the finest and best worded posts I've seen on FI. In two paragraphs it says everything I think most of us have been trying to get across for a long time!

You need to get your story straight if you are going to post my opinions for me.

 

[brokeflyer]

management gets an employment contract, so we do as well.

sorry you hate unions but they wern't my idea.

I've said before if the company came out and signed a contract with me saying they will me X amount of dollars and X number of benefits and other required extras, then fine. Do away with the union. But they don't do that. So that is why unions are still around.

 

[Fozzy]

Ask him what his contract pays! My bet it is over 200K a year. Pot calling Kettle.....

 

[B19 Flyer]

management gets an employment contract, so we do as well.

sorry you hate unions but they wern't my idea.

I've said before if the company came out and signed a contract with me saying they will me X amount of dollars and X number of benefits and other required extras, then fine. Do away with the union. But they don't do that. So that is why unions are still around.

Management is offered a contract, unions demand one. If management is not offered a contract, they can simply so "no" and not accept the job. Unions on the other hand demand a contract that can put the company out of business. Apples and oranges and a comparison between the two cannot be made.

Broke.... address the rest of that post, not just the point about management. As always, you choose one line and ignore the rest then accuse me of blaming everything on unions which is not something I've ever done.

Go ahead and address the rest of it and tell me how unions benefit your company and give the rest of your company job security, not just you. In your respones, concentrate especially hard on when times are tough like they are right now.

Tell me how your union will make the entire company secure during this economic downturn and how your union is going to ensure that if it gets bad enough where contract negotiations take place that changes will take place fast enough so the company isn't negatively impacted and innocent bystanders won't lose their jobs and careers and small businesses that depend upon them.


Go ahead, I'm anxious to see what you come up with that is big picture, not just your greedy little union group. Tell me how that union benefits everybody in the company, not just you.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Ask him what his contract pays! My bet it is over 200K a year. Pot calling Kettle.....

I don't have a contract and am an employee at will.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Well to be honest I wouldn't know because I haven't tried at all. It is a ludicrous premiss. Management is responsible for assembling a team of experts in their respective fields, and creating a business strategy that will allow the company to make a profit. It's up to that assembled team to execute on the plan. Good managers delegate and oversee but rarely accomplish much by themselves. You seem more than ready to take all the credit for everyone else's hard work.
In fact, you barely, if at all acknowledge anyone else's work. Why is it so hard for you to understand each of us brings a unique skill set.

Which part of the last post did you miss where I stated all the different groups that make up an air carrier. You really need to read what I write before you go posting the opposite. I’ve always stated that every single individual in a company is important and it’s the entire company not just a group of union pilots. The pilots are but a small piece of the puzzle, and it’s up to management to give you the tools and design programs to keep the company successful. As pilots, all you do is execute the plan laid out by management but it doesn’t stop there. Every employee has an equal part in that success. Pilots on this board seem to think that they are so lofty that nobody else matters. Wrong, it doesn’t work that way. I’ve written that all over the place. I've been on the line and have respect for what happens on the line, however I also understand that without the rest of the employees in the company, I didn't go anywhere.


Executive management expertise is to put together business and financial plans. I don't think many top Executives are qualified to do heavy turbine engine repair, but the business comes to a grinding hault unless someone who is qualified works through the night to keep the jets flying.

I don’t know where you have experience, but at the very senior level above VP that might be true because they have financial backgrounds. All management of operations departments have certificates in their pockets and can walk the walk through personal experience and the FARs mandate that for Part 119.

While management is responsible to the stockholders, owners and customers, ultimately so is everyone else. I'll wager most customers don't even know who management is. If they say they like the company, what they really mean is that they like the folks in customer service and they like the pilots. We are the face of the company. We are the brand!

That is true at any company from McDonalds up through NASA. But it’s management that cultivates the image from uniforms through programs and training. They are the ones that create the face of the company and choose those employees that will bring that image forward to the public.

Your shortsightedness is indicative of all that is wrong with Corporate America. You think the answer to everything is reduce labor cost.

I have never stated that the answer is reduced labor cost. Never. I challenge you to find a single post where I wrote that.

It doesn't matter to you that you are mortgaging the future for this quarters performance numbers. Of course why wouldn't you? Your bonus this year depends on it. A very wise CEO once said, "if I take care of my employees they will take care of my customers, and my customers will take care of my stockholders."

He obviously wasn’t being held hostage by a union.

It seems simple. It's called the long term view and it's not in vogue lately. People like you would rather slash employee overhead to the point that no one cares about their job, and the product suffers dramatically. But hell, we don't matter. You're "responsible for all the pieces." Good thing you got that bonus last year...

I did. I work for a profitable company.
...

If you are going to use my opinions, then get them right.

 

[brokeflyer]

once again....

if the company agreed to pay me what the job is worth, then fine. No union needed,

You want it in another language?

 

[Fozzy]

I don't have a contract and am an employee at will.

Don't need one at 250K,

 

[PCL_128]

Management is offered a contract, unions demand one. If management is not offered a contract, they can simply so "no" and not accept the job. Unions on the other hand demand a contract that can put the company out of business. Apples and oranges and a comparison between the two cannot be made.

If the company doesn't want to accept the union's terms, then the company can refuse. This could possibly lead to self-help, in which case the company can legally replace the union workers. For every action that a union can take, management has an action that they can take in response. The real truth of the matter is that the system is weighted in management's favor, not labor's.

Go ahead and address the rest of it and tell me how unions benefit your company and give the rest of your company job security, not just you. In your respones, concentrate especially hard on when times are tough like they are right now.

It isn't the job of a single union to provide job security for everyone at the company. If the other employee groups want to guarantee job security of their own, then they need to unionize and negotiate job protection language of their own. The job of a pilots' union is to provide job security for its members, not for other employee groups. They have the right to unionize and defend themselves just like the pilots do.

Tell me how your union will make the entire company secure during this economic downturn and how your union is going to ensure that if it gets bad enough where contract negotiations take place that changes will take place fast enough so the company isn't negatively impacted and innocent bystanders won't lose their jobs and careers and small businesses that depend upon them.

Unions don't manage companies, management does. You seem to have the idea that in tough times, companies should always balance their books on the backs of labor. Sorry, but that's unacceptable, lazy management. The terms of the labor agreements shouldn't change just because your profits have dipped. You need to find a way to boost revenue or or efficiency without harming your employees.

 

[fischman]

Well said PCL.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Once again, I've addressed this many times. First, it's well known what Grinstein did, but even more than that, a contract offered by the board to a CEO is not the same as one that is negotiated by a union. A CEO is offered a contract to attract a qualified person and retain their services in order to best serve and run the company. A union contract doesn't and isn't negotatied that way.

Once again, YOU MISS THE POINT. You continue to assert that somehow management is more important or more deserving of a decent contract and that the rest of us shouldn't have the same right to a good salary and benefits and decent work rules. The way it is negotiated has nothing to do with it. You're talking about human beings that work for the same company and both parties should have pay and benefits that reflect the current state of the company. You continue to completely avoid the subject of why you consider it to be completely moral for management to receive huge bonuses while the bread and butter of a company is being downsized and squeezed.

Once again, ad nauseum. I have constantly stated, if you are not happy with management, go be one and get off your butt. If you are smart enough to hold the company hostage and bring a union onto the property, you must also be smart enough to enter the world of management and fix the perception of what is wrong. I've seen many chief pilots (that were radical union supporters) come off the line and discover it's just not that easy and turn their backs on the union once the reality sets in.

Get of our butts?! What the hell is your problem? For somebody that says he is a pilot, you know just how hard we work and how much we've had to "get off our butts" to get to where we all are. You continue to belittle the intelligence levels of all that have chosen the piloting profession over management, asserting that it's our problem for doing so versus becoming management and the only way to fix it is to come over to the management side. You are basically saying that the pilot profession is no longer deserving of good pay and benefits and none of us "deserve" the same things as management because we are not "smart" enough.

Get this through your head. There is a reason that those of us that choose to be line pilots have no aspirations of becoming managers. It has nothing to do with ambition, intelligence, gumption, etc. etc. We love what we do, we worked hard to get here, and we damned well deserve the best pay and benefits we can get.

If times are hard and management wants union concessions, then they better be prepared to show that they are making the same concessions. They are no better for having CHOSEN the management profession. This is not a class system, where we are the lower class, although it is quite obvious that you think so.

Pilots don't work for free and we are not cheap labor! I have a $37,000 student loan (just for the flight training) and a 4 year college degree as well as an MBA to prove it.

There was an article written in a 2007 issue of Flying magazine by American Airlines Captain Les Abend, who writes the "Jumpseat" column every month. It was titled "Return On Investment" and spoke right to the heart of this subject. We as pilots make tremendous monetary and lifestyle sacrifices to do what we do because we love it and have a great respect for the profession. We should be able to receive a healthy lifetime return on that investment/sacrifice.

If the "genius, elite, upper class, got off their butts, all powerful" managers of our time don't think they can offer that to their line pilots then maybe these geniuses should seek to manage a different type of company, period.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Get this through your head. There is a reason that those of us that choose to be line pilots have no aspirations of becoming managers. It has nothing to do with ambition, intelligence, gumption, etc. etc. We love what we do, we worked hard to get here, and we damned well deserve the best pay and benefits we can get.

If times are hard and management wants union concessions, then they better be prepared to show that they are making the same concessions. They are no better for having CHOSEN the management profession. This is not a class system, where we are the lower class, although it is quite obvious that you think so.

Pilots don't work for free and we are not cheap labor! I have a $37,000 student loan (just for the flight training) and a 4 year college degree as well as an MBA to prove it.

There was an article written in a 2007 issue of Flying magazine by American Airlines Captain Les Abend, who writes the "Jumpseat" column every month. It was titled "Return On Investment" and spoke right to the heart of this subject. We as pilots make tremendous monetary and lifestyle sacrifices to do what we do because we love it and have a great respect for the profession. We should be able to receive a healthy lifetime return on that investment/sacrifice.

If the "genius, elite, upper class, got off their butts, all powerful" managers of our time don't think they can offer that to their line pilots then maybe these geniuses should seek to manage a different type of company, period.

You say I don't get it, yet you support my exact arguement about payroll, etc. You seem to think that all jobs within aviation should be high paying for a return on investment no matter if you are flying a 1900 or an A340. Both you and I know what we got ourselves into when we chose this career. We both knew that it would expensive for our training and the first 5 to 10 years we would make squat with the payoff coming later in life once we earned our way into bigger and more profitable equipment.

We both knew that the industry is highly unionized, never made a profit and is heavily burdened by the cycles of the economy. The old timers expected furloughs and layoffs at some point of their career.

Today, pilots can't seem to accept that their payroll is based on the revenue of the company rather than a regulated ticket price of years gone by. The market and industry has changed but the union philosophy hasn't. In the old days an increased union contract would simply mean a hike in airfares, it doesn't work that way anymore.

Before you go whining about what you make for a living, remember that the revenue stream to make the payroll has to come from somewhere and it's management that has to figure out how to make it happen, not pilots. Management does a lot more than set schedules and flight operations policies that affect pilots, management makes the decisions on how to squeeze cash from a rock especially during tough economic times as we face today.

You need to understand that the entire company needs to be protected, not just management and union pilots. The entire entity is at risk and what you make for payroll is directly tied to that.

If you aren't happy with what you make or how you are treated, then you've made the wrong decision within your career and need to make changes to adjust for that.

You knew what you were getting yourself into (as did I) , and whining about it now isn't going to change anything, but action will.

You are not entitled to anything in this industry because you chose to be a pilot. It's all about choice and we all knew what we were up against when we made the choice.

 

[Hogprint]

FlyAuburn posted:

For somebody that says he is a pilot

This really is the gist of the matter with this guy...

He doesn't even have the stones to post his credentials in his avatar. My guess is he has just enough C150 time, RayBan shades, and the Lady J adapter to call himself a "pilot".

 

[B19 Flyer]

FlyAuburn posted:



This really is the gist of the matter with this guy...

He doesn't even have the stones to post his credentials in his avatar. My guess is he has just enough C150 time, RayBan shades, and the Lady J adapter to call himself a "pilot".

Ya know, I posted them for a long time and realized that even though I've never posted anything that wasn't true nobody believed it anyway so I figured, why bother? Actual aircraft? You're right, I have lots of C150 time, but the logbook is mixed with a lot of other piston and turbine time up to and including B737.

Oh, and I've never been a Ray-Ban guy, I prefer Serengeti’s.

 

[B19 Flyer]

If the company doesn't want to accept the union's terms, then the company can refuse. This could possibly lead to self-help, in which case the company can legally replace the union workers. For every action that a union can take, management has an action that they can take in response. The real truth of the matter is that the system is weighted in management's favor, not labor's.

If the system was weighted in management's favor, management wouldn't be asking for concessions to prevent a company from going into bankruptcy or worse when times were tough.



It isn't the job of a single union to provide job security for everyone at the company. If the other employee groups want to guarantee job security of their own, then they need to unionize and negotiate job protection language of their own. The job of a pilots' union is to provide job security for its members, not for other employee groups. They have the right to unionize and defend themselves just like the pilots do.

The majority of employees at many companies don't view unions as job security. They view them as company burdens and see the great risk involved with union activity.



Unions don't manage companies, management does. You seem to have the idea that in tough times, companies should always balance their books on the backs of labor.

No I don't. I've never said that. Organized labor however feels that the company must produce profits to meet the needs of the labor force over the stabilization of the company and it's future.

Sorry, but that's unacceptable, lazy management.

I find those that gang up on a company with a union as the lazy ones. Instead of working with the company, the union sets the payroll and hopes the company can continue to produce the revenue to cover it.

The terms of the labor agreements shouldn't change just because your profits have dipped. You need to find a way to boost revenue or or efficiency without harming your employees.

CBAs restrict the company's ability to be profitable by scope clauses, work rules and benefits clauses that preclude a company from the flexibility necessary when times are tough. You want the company to operate based on the CBA instead of what is best for the company.

Business is designed to create value for the shareholders, the employees and the customers. Everything you write is slanted toward the company creating value for the union only. A high cost CBA robs the company of the flexibility and ability to adjust to difficult times. There is no better example of that in aviation recently than how long Delta was able to hold off before going into bankruptcy because the company has the least amount of organized labor, how quickly it came out and the overall health of the company now compared to it's counterparts as legacy carriers.

The company isn't there to serve the union...