Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[CatYaaak]

I am saying that the CORPORATE mission that the Legacy fulfills is one the Falcon and Gulfstream could never do. It's more demanding and requires more reliability than those airplanes can manage. Doing the long-haul, one-cycle leg mission like Gulfstream and Falcon is not as hard as doing six legs a day six days a week.

I can't stand up in it and I'm an adult. That's a lame argument any way. The people who are buying the ERJ have the option for a standup cabin section and they always turn it down. It's just not that important. If you want a standup cabin buy a 737BJ.

If you ask me, the CRJ is junk, BTW. It certainly doesn't have the reliability of the ERJ fleet. It also likes to flip upside down and do other crazy stuff at high altitudes.

I know a guy who is an IP on the CRJ for one of the large regionals that fly it and he says it is borderline unairworthy. I realize it's an exaggeration, but I don't see ERJs crashing left and right. They are also much more reliable and cost less to acquire, fly, and maintain than a CRJ.

If the CRJ were so superior to the ERJ then there wouldn't be over 900 ERJs flying worldwide without a fatality.

The Challenger isn't all that either. One of the guys who recently bought a Legacy told a group of us their Challenger cost them more than $500,000 in unscheduled maintenance last year. They dumped it for the 135BJ. I also don't see ERJs plowing off runway ends with jammed flight controls...

Beer has killed too many brain cells during my life or something, because I'm having a hard time following just exactly what this WSCoD's corporate mission is. Is it now six legs a day, six days a week? And as you've stated numerous times before, 3200 mile segments?

This means the WSCoD can fly 19,200 nm in a day, averaging 835kts over 23 hours (I figured only 10 minutes per turn, since I read somewhere nothing can turn as fast as them) so by the end of their 6-day week the short-statured, iron-bottomed execs it carries have traveled over 115,000nm or the equivalent of 4.7 times around the globe......without breaking or tail flutter!

Wow. Indeed, that IS truly amazing. No wonder the SCoD gets the "Whistling" descriptor! Furthermore, it leaves me almost breathless to think of how much more it could do if it only didn't have to stop on that 7th day to have it's tires changed. Btw, these 36-segment per week companies....where are they again, and do they adhere to recommended duty time limits?

And I've rethought what you've said about stand-up cabins and I couldnt agree more.....those highly unusual, 6' tall freaks of nature should just either sit for 3200nm, or buy a BBJ. Every 6 hours, who needs more than a 10-minute leg stretch while you're getting gas anyway? Just like the whales, I'm sick and tired of coddling the overlarge!

But jeez man, why didn't you impart your knowledge and warn me about Challengers and CRJs before I foolishly went out and spent a few thousand hours in them? Thanks to you, I now realize I'm lucky to be alive! Now that you mention it, I do recall thinking at the time all the flipping and spinning and crazy death-diving stuff going on up there seemed a little weird. Whew, and all this time I thought it was just me.

Now excuse me, I have to go buy a big, sturdy umbrella. It's sunny outside, but you never know when it might start raining Bombardier products.

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

Are those problems inherent to the aircraft or could it be pilot error? Remember, you stated that the CRJ was/is junk.

Well, my experience is only from the J/S perspective and what people who fly it that I know personally tell me. I am told it has very narrow margins in cruise which may have contributed to the loss of control fatal accident that involved a CRJ last year.

The latest 604 crash looks to have been a design-related problem with the flight controls. Pure speculation at this point, of course, but there have been a lot of Challengers run off the end of the runway, and the CRJ is adapted from the Challenger, so...

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

Beer has killed too many brain cells during my life or something, because I'm having a hard time following just exactly what this WSCoD's corporate mission is. Is it now six legs a day, six days a week? And as you've stated numerous times before, 3200 mile segments?

The bulk of the fleet is doing mult-hop days. Segment length depends on the mission. It's nice to know that a Legacy is equally adept at being cycled hard for six or more legs a day...or flown on a nice and comfy 3200NM segment. Take your pick. I do both depending on what the boss needs. I logged 19 1/2 hours over two days last month. I was tired, but the jet was ready for more.

Intel, Conoco-Philips, Swift, and Flight Options all cycle their jets multiple times per day, every day. Other companies use them for longer stuff with fewer cycles. It will do either.

 

[banned username 2]

I am saying that the CORPORATE mission that the Legacy fulfills is one the Falcon and Gulfstream could never do. It's more demanding and requires more reliability than those airplanes can manage. Doing the long-haul, one-cycle leg mission like Gulfstream and Falcon is not as hard as doing six legs a day six days a week.

OK, I'm sorry to make this personal, but you are in fact an idiot... Do you know ANYTHING about Corporate ops, c'mon, you are a self-admitted "Wrongfully Terminated RJ Captain"? (If anyone wants to read his saga, just do a search for "Skull-One") You are the one who earlier in this thread said the average stage length of a G-V mission was only something like 2.8 hours (I don't remember the last number), but now you are saying the only thing it ever does is fly 8+ hour missions... The constant contradictions of yourself are amusing at best...

Our 2 Falcon 900EX's both did over 1,100 flight hours EACH last year, one had 587 cycles the other 563, you do the math there genius...

Our Falcon 50EX's all did over 700 hours each and had average cycles of around 430 or so...

I know a guy who is an IP on the CRJ for one of the large regionals that fly it and he says it is borderline unairworthy. I realize it's an exaggeration, but I don't see ERJs crashing left and right. They are also much more reliable and cost less to acquire, fly, and maintain than a CRJ.

Ah yes, more "He said, she said" and generalities... Still no hard data of any sort to back up ANY claims you have attempted to make...

As for the range increase, I can only tell you what we are hearing and what I am guessing with just some short and simple calculations on fuel burn. The 100NM in my 100-300 estimate isn't far from your 75NM either way and depends upon weight among other factors.

Well checking back on some old DATA (not assertations or hear-say)... Embraer used to advertise the Legacy as a 3,200 NM Range aircraft (at Mach 0.74 of course) with a max ceiling of FL390 and now they are advertising it as a 3,250 NM aircraft (again, at a screaming Mach 0.74) with a max ceiling of FL410... So let's do a little math, shall we??? 3250 - 3200 = 50 NM Range Increase for the FL410 upgrade, wow looks like your "100-300 NM Range increase" was yet another TOTAL exagerration of epic proportions! I hate to say it, but my 50-75 NM range increase estimate was even generous, as the aircraft came in at the very low end of my estimation...

SKULL-ONE (i.e. LegacyDriver, LegacyIIDriver, vraciu and what every other screen names you have come up with)... Listen up, and listen closely... You have made absolutely no progress here... You haven't convinced anyone of anything (except that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about)... Even if someone came to this thread thinking neutral about the Legacy, it is very obvious they would leave the thread with a negative impression of the airplane... The funny part is YOU started this thread looking for a fight, you found it, had your a$$ handed to you on so many occasions I lost track long ago, and you still haven't figured it out... There have been SEVERAL EMB-135/145 pilots come to this thread and directly STATE that the EMB is a POS aircraft and they were not impressed with it in the least bit... The other irony is if you work for Swift or Embraer and were trying to pump the product, you did exactly the opposite, and your lack of credibility and knowledge has been demonstrated repeatedly... Virtually none of the members on this board are owners of an aircraft in this price range, but a LOT of us certainly have a say and a hand on the steering wheel when it comes time for aircraft aquisitions... All you have done is pretty much make sure that the WSCofD doesn't appear in any proposals for some CEO's out there...

Oh, and as for this:

I asked the pilot if Gulfstream had a replacement lens for him and he said, "Of course not!" Kinda' sarcastic (but still smiling and being nice toward me).

He wasn't "smiling" at you, he was trying not to laugh when he saw what you were flying... He read this thread...

Oh, another thing... I was in Augusta, GA this weekend for the Masters (you know, that little golf game in Georgia), I took a little "Ramp Survey", let's have a look shall we?

Gulfstreams - 31
Falcons - 29
Challengers/GEX - 14
Hawkers - 8
Lears/Citations - too many to count
WSCoD (Legacy) - 0

I think those numbers tell the tale of what the decision makers think of your "RJ"... Get over it, it's just a fancy RJ... And that's OK, it pays your bills and THAT is really what matters, but please, tell you neighbors you fly the Space Shuttle, cuz we just aren't buying it... You can put all the lipstick on that pig you want, but we all know bacon when we smell it...

Enough already, you are losing more credibility with every post...

 

[501261]

OK, I'm sorry to make this personal, but you are in fact an idiot... Do you know ANYTHING about Corporate ops, c'mon, you are a self-admitted "Wrongfully Terminated RJ Captain"? (If anyone wants to read his saga, just do a search for "Skull-One") You are the one who earlier in this thread said the average stage length of a G-V mission was only something like 2.8 hours (I don't remember the last number), but now you are saying the only thing it ever does is fly 8+ hour missions... The constant contradictions of yourself are amusing at best...

Our 2 Falcon 900EX's both did over 1,100 flight hours EACH last year, one had 587 cycles the other 563, you do the math there genius...

Our Falcon 50EX's all did over 700 hours each and had average cycles of around 430 or so...



Ah yes, more "He said, she said" and generalities... Still no hard data of any sort to back up ANY claims you have attempted to make...

Well checking back on some old DATA (not assertations or hear-say)... Embraer used to advertise the Legacy as a 3,200 NM Range aircraft (at Mach 0.74 of course) with a max ceiling of FL390 and now they are advertising it as a 3,250 NM aircraft (again, at a screaming Mach 0.74) with a max ceiling of FL410... So let's do a little math, shall we??? 3250 - 3200 = 50 NM Range Increase for the FL410 upgrade, wow looks like your "100-300 NM Range increase" was yet another TOTAL exagerration of epic proportions! I hate to say it, but my 50-75 NM range increase estimate was even generous, as the aircraft came in at the very low end of my estimation...

SKULL-ONE (i.e. LegacyDriver, LegacyIIDriver, vraciu and what every other screen names you have come up with)... Listen up, and listen closely... You have made absolutely no progress here... You haven't convinced anyone of anything (except that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about)... Even if someone came to this thread thinking neutral about the Legacy, it is very obvious they would leave the thread with a negative impression of the airplane... The funny part is YOU started this thread looking for a fight, you found it, had your a$$ handed to you on so many occasions I lost track long ago, and you still haven't figured it out... There have been SEVERAL EMB-135/145 pilots come to this thread and directly STATE that the EMB is a POS aircraft and they were not impressed with it in the least bit... The other irony is if you work for Swift or Embraer and were trying to pump the product, you did exactly the opposite, and your lack of credibility and knowledge has been demonstrated repeatedly... Virtually none of the members on this board are owners of an aircraft in this price range, but a LOT of us certainly have a say and a hand on the steering wheel when it comes time for aircraft aquisitions... All you have done is pretty much make sure that the WSCofD doesn't appear in any proposals for some CEO's out there...

Oh, and as for this:

He wasn't "smiling" at you, he was trying not to laugh when he saw what you were flying... He read this thread...

Oh, another thing... I was in Augusta, GA this weekend for the Masters (you know, that little golf game in Georgia), I took a little "Ramp Survey", let's have a look shall we?

Gulfstreams - 31
Falcons - 29
Challengers/GEX - 14
Hawkers - 8
Lears/Citations - too many to count
WSCoD (Legacy) - 0

I think those numbers tell the tale of what the decision makers think of your "RJ"... Get over it, it's just a fancy RJ... And that's OK, it pays your bills and THAT is really what matters, but please, tell you neighbors you fly the Space Shuttle, cuz we just aren't buying it... You can put all the lipstick on that pig you want, but we all know bacon when we smell it...

Enough already, you are losing more credibility with every post...

Can I get an AMEN!

Preach on Brother Falcon!

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

I can see you feel you're losing this argument since you are trying to smear me unfairly. Yes, I was improperly terminated and was subsequently cleared of any wrongdoing. Anything else you have heard is pure fantasy, so let's just move past that, shall we and stick to the issue here, okay?


From our illustrious Falcon "Captain":

Well checking back on some old DATA (not assertations or hear-say)... Embraer used to advertise the Legacy as a 3,200 NM Range aircraft (at Mach 0.74 of course) with a max ceiling of FL390 and now they are advertising it as a 3,250 NM aircraft (again, at a screaming Mach 0.74) with a max ceiling of FL410... So let's do a little math, shall we??? 3250 - 3200 = 50 NM Range Increase for the FL410 upgrade, wow looks like your "100-300 NM Range increase" was yet another TOTAL exagerration of epic proportions! I hate to say it, but my 50-75 NM range increase estimate was even generous, as the aircraft came in at the very low end of my estimation...

Any way....... The airplane will do .74M range numbers at .796M. Do it all the time, personally. If you look at it, even the PUBLISHED numbers between .80 range and .74 are a wopping 100-150NM. That's just not that much. Going back and forth across the CONUS we are always doing .795M so quit acting like everyone is running around at 0.74M. We aren't. We don't.

The airplane's *CURRENT* range is 3250NM with reserve at FL390. PERIOD. That is advertised, that is fact, that is how it has been for some time. The FL410 numbers do *NOT* exist in the AOM ANYWHERE. What you see are marketing numbers where FL410 is shown.

THIS is FL390 data here (CAN YOU READ??????) :

http://www.legacybyembraer.com/english/content/executive/payload.asp

8 pax with NBAA RESERVES = 3250 NM at FL390 .74M !
8 pax with NBAA RESERVES = 3100 NM at FL390 .80M !

A whopping 150 NM increase by slowing to .74M! Going to FL410 will probably give most if not all of that back to us. But who cares? The airplane is meets the .74M numbers at .795M. Again, EMB conservatism at its finest. Not my fault I'm just a messenger.

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

Can I get an AMEN!

Preach on Brother Falcon!

Do you people even pay attention to anything that is being said here or are you just cheering Falcon on for the sake of cheering him on?

Ignorance must be bliss...

 

[501261]

You know in the back of my head I keep thinking that WSCoDdriverII must really work for one of Embraer's competitors. I mean just imagine if WSCoDdriver where really some marketing guy in Montreal or someplace.

Kudos to him, give that man a raise! I mean think about it you don't think of a BBJ or Challenger 800 as a "real" business jet either, but I certainly won't go around thinking of those things are WSCoD's!

 

[CatYaaak]

Well, my experience is only from the J/S perspective and what people who fly it that I know personally tell me. I am told it has very narrow margins in cruise which may have contributed to the loss of control fatal accident that involved a CRJ last year.

The latest 604 crash looks to have been a design-related problem with the flight controls. Pure speculation at this point, of course, but there have been a lot of Challengers run off the end of the runway, and the CRJ is adapted from the Challenger, so...

Well then, you certainly know more about them than I do. I only flew them, so therefore lack the objectivity that comes from riding on a J/S or getting things secondhand. For instance, I myself became an expert on 747s in this very same manner....go ahead, ask me anything.

I do know that the CIA,the USAF, and NASA train U2 and TR1 pilots in CRJs, so they can develop the necessary flying skills to later deal with the 5-knot margin between low and high speed buffets while at FL700+ in their spyplanes. Most people erroneously think that the 'C' in CRJ stands for Canadair, but those of us who've flown it know it stands for "Coffin Corner". It's so bad, that if you fly it into a stall it...well...it stalls! Now, who would ever design a plane with that shortcoming? Friggin' Canadians!

As for the Challengers....well, I think it's clear you have a line into the NTSB that the rest of us don't, so I'll just have to take your word for the overrun thing.

Note to self: buy houses on stilts if it's near an extended runway centerline, and ask for "3rd floor or higher" at airport hotels, staying safely above the Hoser Peril as they go whizzing by below me like torpedoes.

 

[LegacyIIDriver]

You know in the back of my head I keep thinking that WSCoDdriverII must really work for one of Embraer's competitors. I mean just imagine if WSCoDdriver where really some marketing guy in Montreal or someplace.

Kudos to him, give that man a raise! I mean think about it you don't think of a BBJ or Challenger 800 as a "real" business jet either, but I certainly won't go around thinking of those things are WSCoD's!

Your problem is you don't think at all.

Falcon can't even keep his facts straight and continues to misquote performance data but you cheer him on any way.

Pull your head out.

FL390 Data (NOT FL410 data as Falcon asserts above):

http://www.legacybyembraer.com/english/content/executive/payload.asp