Leave SWA for AA or Delta?

[Ty Webb]

Me either.....

The irony is that SW has never been PFT, and VJ, which became AT, has.

Or, you could say the irony is that VJ ended their requirement in 1996, while SWA still maintains theirs.

 

[General Lee]

Or, you could say the irony is that VJ ended their requirement in 1996, while SWA still maintains theirs.

Ty, come on, they just don't see it.... Someone has to pay for their type before they start, either Military, another airline, or out of their own pockets. But, to them, that isn't paying for your training......drug tests all around please!



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[-9Capt]

Who paid for your Private?

Instrument?

Mutli engine?

CFI?

4 year degree?

Why isn't requiring a 4 yr degree costing upwards of $100,000 PFT per your ignorant definition if a type is?

You forgot CFII, MEI and ATP.

Flight ratings as well as a bachelors degree are universally accepted as necessary to gain employment in this industry. Requiring new hires to acquire type specific training prior to employment is very much a different thing. That is also universally accepted by pretty much everyone who isn't a SW pilot.

To the rest of you, please go on and tell me how great your SW career has been compared to my lowly existence as an uber senior AT captain living in domicile. I find the comparisons most entertaining and thought provoking.

 

[Tripower455]

Or, you could say the irony is that VJ ended their requirement in 1996, while SWA still maintains theirs.

You could, but there'd be no irony as you'd be comparing apples and oranges.

I work for a company that has been called PFT by the FI brain trust, including a few VJ/AT folks. SW isn't and has never been PFT.

-9 Capt, on the other hand, works for a company that actually has been PFT in the past, so there's the irony.


VJ was the definition of PFT. In order to get hired at VJ, you had to pay VJ 5 figures up front ($10k IIRC) for the privilege of making commuter level wages and dealing with a large number of scabs.

The 737 type rating is a minimum hiring requirement. You can't pay SW for a type, even if you wanted to, just like you can't pay them for your ATP, MEL ratings etc., you just have to have them.

All that said, I think the type is a stupid requirement, almost as stupid (although much cheaper) as requiring a 4 year degree to do this job. But in no stretch of the definition is it PFT.

 

[-9Capt]

-9 Capt, on the other hand, works for a company that actually has been PFT in the past, .

Ya know Delta started out as a crop dusting outfit, so I guess they're nothin but a bunch of AG pilots, right?

Another point you'll probably find interesting, if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

 

[General Lee]

Tripower loves to leave out that if you interview and get hired, and don't have the type, you have to PAY for it yourself. That....is.....pay...for training.... If you don't have a 4 year degree and that is required, then you won't even get the interview. They don't say "thanks for interviewing, now, go get your 4 year degree, see ya in 4 years...."


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tripower455]

You forgot CFII, MEI and ATP.

Flight ratings as well as a bachelors degree are universally accepted as necessary to gain employment in this industry. Requiring new hires to acquire type specific training prior to employment is very much a different thing. That is also universally accepted by pretty much everyone who isn't a SW pilot.

Yet, it still isn't PFT, as defined by airlines like Comair, Gulfstream, Valuejet etc. Call it what you will, a ridiculous requirement, but it ain't PFT.

To the rest of you, please go on and tell me how great your SW career has been compared to my lowly existence as an uber senior AT captain living in domicile. I find the comparisons most entertaining and thought provoking.

I find it "thought provoking" that you would even compare the 2......

 

[Tripower455]

Tripower loves to leave out that if you interview and get hired, and don't have the type, you have to PAY for it yourself. That....is.....pay...for training....

Who do you pay for that training? SW won't take a dime of your money, besides, anyone that meets the minimum requirements for SW aren't paying for training, they're paying for the type rating to meet that requirement.

If you don't have a 4 year degree and that is required, then you won't even get the interview. They don't say "thanks for interviewing, now, go get your 4 year degree, see ya in 4 years...."


Bye Bye---General Lee

When I got hired, the type was required to even be considered for an interview. Some people were betting $8k on the chance of an interview at SW.

Which is better?

At least now, those hired without the type have a solid job offer before shelling out the money for it.

 

[Tripower455]

Ya know Delta started out as a crop dusting outfit, so I guess they're nothin but a bunch of AG pilots, right?

Another point you'll probably find interesting, if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

None of that changes the fact that SW is not, and has never been, a PFT outfit, like Valuejet was.

 

[General Lee]

Who do you pay for that training? SW won't take a dime of your money, besides, anyone that meets the minimum requirements for SW aren't paying for training, they're paying for the type rating to meet that requirement.



When I got hired, the type was required to even be considered for an interview. Some people were betting $8k on the chance of an interview at SW.

Which is better?

At least now, those hired without the type have a solid job offer before shelling out the money for it.

Don't compare the 4 year degree requirement to the type rating. You can get an interview without the type at SWA, but can't get an interview at all at most airlines without the 4 year degree. It is better that your airline will interview first now, but is it better to have the type first? Is that advantageous? And, you are still paying money down to someone for that class date at your airline. Do you have to pay for anything "extra" for a class at the big 3? Nope. Come on man, it doesn't matter who you are paying, the problem is you HAVE TO PAY SOMEONE...... Don't try to get around that... Just work on getting that deal changed. The AT guys coming over from the 717 should have put that whole thing to a stop...



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tripower455]

Don't compare the 4 year degree requirement to the type rating.

Umm, you brought up the 4 year degree, but it's a valid comparison. The 4 year degree is a requirement for an interview at DAL, same as the type was when I interviewed at SW. Both are ridiculous in the context of this career, although there is some advantage to having a degree in something other than aviation when you get furloughed. I'm pretty sure that's not why the big guys require it.

You can get an interview without the type at SWA, but can't get an interview at all at most airlines without the 4 year degree. It is better that your airline will interview first now, but is it better to have the type first? Is that advantageous?

Who cares? They're both stupid requirements, but nevertheless, they are requirements. Don't have a 4 year degree, don't apply to a place that requires it, since you're not qualified. Don't have the type, you can still apply at SW and make a decision whether or not it's worth getting AFTER you're offered the job.

And, you are still paying money down to someone for that class date at your airline.

Sure, but you're not paying SW one dime, hence, comparing SW to real PFT outfits like Gulfstream and Valuejet is ridiculous.

Do you have to pay for anything "extra" for a class at the big 3? Nope.

I had to pay to take the friggin' FE written 4 times, because even though the FAA said that as long as you're employed by a 121 carrier, the written is considered current, every friggin' major required a "current" one taken within 2 years. Talk about a waste of time and effort for no reason.

As for "paying" with the big 3, how much were the furloughed guys making after 9/11? Is that not, in a way, paying? Heck, how much were the EMPLOYED guys making post 9/11?

I can guarantee that $8k paid for itself very quickly at SW in that time frame. There are a ton of guys who likely wake up and thank heaven that they bought the type to come to SW instead of saving the $$ and going to one of the big 3. I had the opportunity to go to DAL in the late 90s, and I ended up staying at SW. There is NO doubt that I am far better off today, in every way, than had I gone to DAL. It's better to be lucky than good.

Come on man, it doesn't matter who you are paying, the problem is you HAVE TO PAY SOMEONE......

Actually, you don't. You just have to HAVE THE TYPE. It doesn't matter where or how you obtained it, just like a humanities degree.

Don't try to get around that...

Nothing to get around. See above.

Just work on getting that deal changed.

When we have a problem getting qualified applicants, I'm sure it'll change. Until then, nothing any of us say or do will change it.

The AT guys coming over from the 717 should have put that whole thing to a stop...

They aren't required to be typed to come over, so why would they even care?

 

[SWA Bubba]

Don't compare the 4 year degree requirement to the type rating. You can get an interview without the type at SWA, but can't get an interview at all at most airlines without the 4 year degree. It is better that your airline will interview first now, but is it better to have the type first? Is that advantageous? And, you are still paying money down to someone for that class date at your airline. Do you have to pay for anything "extra" for a class at the big 3? Nope. Come on man, it doesn't matter who you are paying, the problem is you HAVE TO PAY SOMEONE...... Don't try to get around that... Just work on getting that deal changed. The AT guys coming over from the 717 should have put that whole thing to a stop...



Bye Bye---General Lee

Good God you're obtuse.

Yes, Southwest pilots had to pay someone (usually) to get a type rating. They also had to pay someone (usually) to get an ATP, other lower pilot ratings, and in some cases, pay for so many hours of flight time; all to meet the minimums. Just like the litany of similar stuff that YOU had to pay for to be qualified to work at Delta.

And actually, you DON'T have to have a 4-year degree to apply at "most" airlines; just some of them, including Delta. What's the point of paying for that at Delta?-- it certainly doesn't weed out the dimwits. Just look in the mirror, General. What a waste of money that was.

But go ahead and keep referring to one part of an airline's minimums as "pay for training"--I know you can't help yourself. But all it does is make you look even dumber than usual, and cheapens the real meaning of the word. Not to mention, the inane blather that you can't seem to stop from spouting is cheapening the meaning of having a 4-year degree as well.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

You forgot CFII, MEI and ATP.

Flight ratings as well as a bachelors degree are universally accepted as necessary to gain employment in this industry.

Not true. Have you never even looked at your own airline's minimum requirements?

Requiring new hires to acquire type specific training prior to employment is very much a different thing. That is also universally accepted by pretty much everyone who isn't a SW pilot.

Also not true. Calling our minimum hiring requirements "PFT" is strictly an FI invention as a way to insult Southwest, for the sole reason that that particular minimum requirement is unique to Southwest. People who say it (probably even including General Lee) know it's not really PFT, but say it anyway, just to be an ass.

To the rest of you, please go on and tell me how great your SW career has been compared to my lowly existence as an uber senior AT captain living in domicile. I find the comparisons most entertaining and thought provoking.

Hey, my career at Southwest has been great--I had a great time with great people; I always made more than enough money; I get to fly to more different cities than most other major airline pilots who fly to a smaller list of equipment-specific places; and most importantly, I never had to worry about being unemployed, not even after 9/11. That's why I came to this airline.

On the other hand, if you've enjoyed your career at AirTran, then I'm happy for you. If that was the best place for you, and that was your niche, then good for you. I'm sorry that your airline got bought, since you obviously didn't want that. In case you didn't know, there's a lot of people on this side who wished it didn't happen as well. But don't worry, if you really can't stand working for a Southwest, all the other airlines are expecting huge hiring booms. <see the title of this thread>.

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

Good God you're obtuse.

Yes, Southwest pilots had to pay someone (usually) to get a type rating. They also had to pay someone (usually) to get an ATP, other lower pilot ratings, and in some cases, pay for so many hours of flight time; all to meet the minimums. Just like the litany of similar stuff that YOU had to pay for to be qualified to work at Delta.

And actually, you DON'T have to have a 4-year degree to apply at "most" airlines; just some of them, including Delta. What's the point of paying for that at Delta?-- it certainly doesn't weed out the dimwits. Just look in the mirror, General. What a waste of money that was.

But go ahead and keep referring to one part of an airline's minimums as "pay for training"--I know you can't help yourself. But all it does is make you look even dumber than usual, and cheapens the real meaning of the word. Not to mention, the inane blather that you can't seem to stop from spouting is cheapening the meaning of having a 4-year degree as well.

Bubba

I'm obtuse? You guys are the ONLY ones who claim it's not paying for training. I LUV how you try to group it with other things like paying for your ATP, etc.... Guess what Bubba? Only you guys have to pay for that extra expense, or someone else (Govt, another airline) has to. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...... Obtuse? Riiiiiiiight. You guys all have Walleye Vision...

What's great is how many people bought the types to get an interview, and then got nixed. Great for them, right? Obtuse.....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[madjack]

I am afraid we all are underestimating Gary's ambitions...my prediction, we will buy another airline that operates widebodies...I thinking Hawaiin...

 

[General Lee]

Double post

 

[SWA Bubba]

I'm obtuse? You guys are the ONLY ones who claim it's not paying for training. I LUV how you try to group it with other things like paying for your ATP, etc.... Guess what Bubba? Only you guys have to pay for that extra expense, or someone else (Govt, another airline) has to. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...... Obtuse? Riiiiiiiight. You guys all have Walleye Vision...

What's great is how many people bought the types to get an interview, and then got nixed. Great for them, right? Obtuse.....



Bye Bye---General Lee

Uh, yes you ARE obtuse. Thank God you finally recognized it. And actually, the only nimwits who DO claim it's PFT are people with an axe to grind against Southwest. Like you.

And whether you noticed it or not, you even acknowledged my point in your post above. You referred to paying "the extra expense." That's exactly what it is--part of the list of things you have to obtain at your own time and expense to be hired. Every airline has such a list, including yours. Just because this one thing isn't on anyone else's list, doesn't make it any different than the things that are on your list. It's uniqueness to Southwest is the only thing that sets it apart--nothing else.

As far as your "looks like a duck" comment, the "duck" is merely a minimum requirement that has to be met. If a pilot had to pay Southwest for anything, I'd say you're right. But since it's absolutely nothing like that, I'd just have to say that you're still an idiot who doesn't know PFT from his own ass.

Bubba

 

[-9Capt]

None of that changes the fact that SW is not, and has never been, a PFT outfit, like Valuejet was.

Hello?
Tell me again why I'm supposed to give a crap about that? I was hired by AirTran Airways, an Orlando based Airline. I never worked for valujet. I could care less if they were PFT or not. It doesn't affect me one way or the other.

The constant reference to VJ and the fact they were PFT make you look desperate in your defense of the SW type rating requirement.

 

[HowardBorden]

Don't compare the 4 year degree requirement to the type rating. You can get an interview without the type at SWA, but can't get an interview at all at most airlines without the 4 year degree.

You really are completely out of touch. Most airlines these days DO NOT require a college degree except Delta. Delta has a very expensive hiring requirement that most other airlines don't. Just like SWA, Delta will drop that requirement when they can no longer find qualified applicants. The cost of the degree requirement at Delta far outweighs the cost of the type rating requirement at SWA.

And for all the folks out there that think SWA saves money by requiring a type you simply are wrong. The training requirements at SWA are no different than any other 121 operator. We have an FAA approved FOTM just like everyone else. The FAA does not allow SWA to drop any requirement because most employees have a 737 type rating. The training that non typed AirTran pilots receive in Dallas is absolutely identical to any other pilot whether typed or not.

Delta:

• Graduate of a four-year degree program from a college or university accredited by a recognized accredited organization
  • Degrees obtained from a non-U.S. institution must be evaluated for equivalency to U.S. degrees by a member organization of the National Association of Credential Evaluation Services (NACES)
  • Postgraduate education will be given favorable consideration.

Southwest:
No degree required

American:
No degree required

United:
No degree required

US Air:
No degree required

Jetblue:
No degree required

Spirit:
No degree required

Frontier:
No degree required

Virgin America:
No degree required

 

[Tripower455]

Hello?
Tell me again why I'm supposed to give a crap about that? I was hired by AirTran Airways, an Orlando based Airline. I never worked for valujet. I could care less if they were PFT or not. It doesn't affect me one way or the other.

It was an example of a PFT airline. As in you handed them a check for 5 figures before you walked in for training or you didn't get the job. You got that part, right? SW has never charged anyone on the property a dime for training. How, even in your world, can SW possibly be a PFT job if there is no possible way to pay for it?

The constant reference to VJ and the fact they were PFT make you look desperate in your defense of the SW type rating requirement.

First of all, I've never, not once, defended the type requirement at SW. I've said numerous times that I feel it is an unnecessary requirement that has kept us from hiring some great folks over the years. As I said above, VJ was an example of actual PFT, as in you paid VJ up front for your job.

Not one person on the list has ever paid SW a dime for their training.

Thats irrefutable fact.

Your constant referring of SW as a PFT airline makes you, the Genital and everyone else parroting that nonsense look ignorant. If that's all you've got, give it up, because you are the one that's desperate.