Leave SWA for AA or Delta?

[waveflyer]

Seniority is NOTHING if you will never upgrade (people who desire a right seat career aside). I'd go to where I can realistically expect to one day see the left seat before I'm too old to enjoy it.

"Never upgrade"?

That's such a .... Naive comment.
Regional thinking
Ego thinking

I do love my right seat position. I'm sure captain slot will be good, but I make $160k in that right seat without trying - why would I be in a hurry to upgrade and go to the bottom of that list?

Granted I have other income sources, so the schedule is most important to me- but IMO, it should be to everyone.

I was a captain for 10 years combined- i have a LOT of respect for my FOs. A lot.
I don't get the constant talk about upgrade at the major airline level.

You building PIC time???

 

[waveflyer]

And -9
You're so bitter, you lost credibility a long time ago.

Can you tell us one positive thing about southwest? Is there one?

 

[-9Capt]

And -9
You're so bitter, you lost credibility a long time ago.

Yeah I'm bitter, nearly every capt on the AT side is bitter right now, and you'd be bitter too if our situations were reversed and SW & SWAPA broke it off in your ass.

Can you tell us one positive thing about southwest? Is there one?

Yes, they do an excellent job of brainwashing their employees.

 

[SWA Bubba]

I'm so happy that paying for a type rating has worked out well for you and your family and that the moral issues associated with doing so don't seem to bother you in the least. My employment decisions have paid off handsomely for me and provided rapid seniority advancement and the ability to enjoy a myriad of leisure activities outside of work...all without the shame of PTF.

"Moral issues"? "Shame"?

Please.

Referring to Southwest's type requirement as "PFT" is solely an FI insult used by people that have nothing else to bitch about at the moment (think General Lee). Obviously, there are legitimate things people can bitch about, but this isn't one of them.

"Pay-For-Training" is paying your company for the privilege of sitting in the right seat, building hours. That's PFT. Using the term for something else that it doesn't really apply to, because you're pissed, just cheapens the term. People who do that are the same dumbasses who refer to people who out-bid them for the trips they want as "scabs." Let me guess--you're also the kind of guy who would define SL-10 as the "second holocaust," because you didn't get what you want.

Meeting the minimums to be hired by a particular company is nothing like that. Southwest requires applicants have a type to be hired, even though it's not required by the FAA. Big freakin' deal. Most airlines require an ATP of their applicants, which also wasn't required by the FAA until very recently. You have to have had that on your own before you were hired, so what's the difference? Nothing. Nada. Jack squat. It's exactly the same. Most airlines require more hours than the FAA requires, and you have to get that on your own. Some, a lot more. A lot of airlines require a 4-year degree, also not required by the FAA. You gotta' get that on your own as well. See the point? Hiring minimums are hiring minimums. Every airline has stated minimums above and beyond what the FAA requires for the job. The only thing different about having a type requirement in a company's minimums, is that it's unique to Southwest.

And now you're pretending some sort of "moral" indignation? What a joke. You think you've got some sort of witty slam. In reality, when everyone else reads it, they think "another whiny, dumbass General Lee-wannabe." Or in your case, "a bitter, whiny, dumbass General Lee-wannabe." Good for you.

Bubba

 

[-9Capt]

Requiring applicants to obtain type specific training in the same equipment the airline operates is not the same as requiring a college degree or an ATP. Sorry, it just isn't.

 

[General Lee]

Requiring applicants to obtain type specific training in the same equipment the airline operates is not the same as requiring a college degree or an ATP. Sorry, it just isn't.

DL didn't make the FNWA 757 guys do extra 757 training, nope. They did let everyone do some landings in a 767 though, which I'm sure cost a bunch. They would take the plane empty up to Duluth or Grand Rapids etc and everyone got a couple touch and goes. That was a good thing. I guess they trusted them to fly the same plane they already knew how to fly (757)....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[HowardBorden]

Requiring applicants to obtain type specific training in the same equipment the airline operates is not the same as requiring a college degree or an ATP. Sorry, it just isn't.

Please, explain with specifics what the difference is.

 

[HowardBorden]

DL didn't make the FNWA 757 guys do extra 757 training, nope. They did let everyone do some landings in a 767 though, which I'm sure cost a bunch. They would take the plane empty up to Duluth or Grand Rapids etc and everyone got a couple touch and goes. That was a good thing. I guess they trusted them to fly the same plane they already knew how to fly (757)....

Is there a point to your meaningless blather?

 

[General Lee]

Is there a point to your meaningless blather?

Well Howie, the FNWA guys were treated with respect by the company, did the SLI fairly with 3 arbitrators, and overall have a better career and loyalty towards the company, who stayed out of the SLI process. Can you see the difference Howie between the DL/NW merger and yours? Of......course you can't....


Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

Requiring applicants to obtain type specific training in the same equipment the airline operates is not the same as requiring a college degree or an ATP. Sorry, it just isn't.

Sorry, but yes it is. It's exactly the same. And more importantly, it's nothing like actual PFT.

It's what a particular company wants to see from its applicants, whether or not it's required by the FAA. It's what a particular company views as minimums in regards to competency, experience, and motivation for the job. It's why Delta requires the degree--it shows motivation level. It's why some companies require more hours than others. It's why some companies require and/or prefer specifically Part 121 hours, even though there's no difference to the FAA.

It's not to save the company money--it doesn't save them a dime. The type rating check ride is the same as the normal PC at the end of training--just one more piece of paper need be filled out. It's to make sure applicants are motivated to be here. Whether you (or me, or anyone else, for that matter) thinks it's an appropriate qualifier or not is immaterial. But in any case, it's not PFT.

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah I'm bitter, nearly every capt on the AT side is bitter right now, and you'd be bitter too if our situations were reversed and SW & SWAPA broke it off in your ass.



Yes, they do an excellent job of brainwashing their employees.

I wouldn't be bitter bc I' turned down air tran after I was furloughed, while at a regional holding out for either recall, SWA, or ups

I landed at SWA- you landed at air tran. I have zero disrespect for that- but I made AT captain money at SWA AT the time of the purchase. So to me- you got a good deal- you've got more stability and the same money you were making when you got purchased. - in not a lot of time, you'll have lots more

I do wish this integration would speed up bc I don't like that you guys are spending 3 years in flux- but in a year and a couple months that'll be done -

Again, and really for the last time- you are a big giant smelly baby for allowing this to bitter you, considering what this industry can and often does throw at pilots.
You're a spoiled child no doubt

 

[scoreboardII]

Requiring applicants to obtain type specific training in the same equipment the airline operates is not the same as requiring a college degree or an ATP. Sorry, it just isn't.

Who paid for your Private?

Instrument?

Mutli engine?

CFI?

4 year degree?

Why isn't requiring a 4 yr degree costing upwards of $100,000 PFT per your ignorant definition if a type is?

You're just being blindingly ignorant because of your hatred of all things SWA. SWAPA didn't do anything more to you than your MEC did to you or tried to do to us. Go look in the mirror and say this "pilots didn't do this to other pilots, SWA did". Now, move on.

 

[General Lee]

Who paid for your Private?

Instrument?

Mutli engine?

CFI?

4 year degree?

Why isn't requiring a 4 yr degree costing upwards of $100,000 PFT per your ignorant definition if a type is?

You're just being blindingly ignorant because of your hatred of all things SWA. SWAPA didn't do anything more to you than your MEC did to you or tried to do to us. Go look in the mirror and say this "pilots didn't do this to other pilots, SWA did". Now, move on.

A 4 year degree is one of those things that can help you attain a job, any job, even if flying doesn't work out for you. It's a benchmark for society. Buying a type rating for a specific job hurts our profession because it turns the tables on "them offering you a job because they want you" to "hi, looky at me, please hire me! I'll pay something so you don't have to and you can save some money, even though your big corporation is already profitable....."


Buying a type hurts our profession, whereas a 4 year degree can help you at any profession. At most other professional jobs, a 4 year degree is required.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[vixin]

Not to mention paying for that type after I was hired, was more then paid for vs AAI pay. Comparing the two it was paid back in the first month or two. I never wanted to go to the airline that paid regional rates to fly Boeings. Yes GL I realize pay at SWA sucked pre 2001. I didn't work here then. I wouldnt have applied then. Some of you really need to learn what PFT is. It's used as poorly as the term scab. Some of you FATS are dilusional of the financial shape AAI was in. Not to mention the new healthy Delta.

 

[General Lee]

Southwest Airlines Abandons Small Markets
By Adam Levine-Weinberg | Motley fool
December 9, 2013


For most of its history, Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV ) has been an aggressive growth company. It terrorized legacy carriers like Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL ) and United Continental (NYSE: UAL ) by constantly pushing further into their turf.

With lower costs and friendly service, Southwest had a lot going for it. However, today Southwest faces tougher competition. As a result, it's looking to retrench to boost its earnings. Southwest's management has stated on multiple occasions that it will hold capacity roughly flat in 2014 in order to focus on completing the integration of its AirTran subsidiary.

As part of that plan, the company recently announced that it will pull out of three smaller markets: Jackson, Miss., Branson Mo., and Key West, Fla. This will free up capacity for more promising markets with plenty of passenger traffic, like New York.


The changing economics of air travel

In recent years, Southwest Airlines has expanded its route network significantly. Some of this growth has come organically through its entry into major markets like New York, Boston, Denver, and Minneapolis-St. Paul, which Southwest had historically avoided. More recently, Southwest bulked up through its acquisition of AirTran Airways, which gave it access to a variety of new cities.
However, the economics of flying to smaller cities has changed in recent years. With higher fuel prices, it's important to keep airplanes full (without discounting tickets too much). As recently as 2007, Southwest's full-year load factor -- the percentage of seats sold -- was just 72.6%; for the past two years its load factor has risen to over 80%.

In order to match capacity to demand, legacy carriers such as United and Delta hire regional airlines to fly small planes between smaller airports and their hubs. By contrast, Southwest only flies mainline aircraft: in fact, it's in the midst of phasing out all of its aircraft with fewer than 143 seats. Southwest's low-cost operating model is therefore hard to implement in small markets.

Focus on efficiency

The three cities Southwest is leaving are some of the smallest in its network. In Branson, it offers just three daily departures; in Jackson, it has four daily departures; and it operates three daily departures in Key West.
It's not very efficient for airlines to operate in cities where they have very few flights. At any airport where it operates, Southwest needs ticket agents, baggage handlers, and gate agents, as well as gate space and check-in counters.
In other words, there's a certain minimum of cost involved in setting up in a new city. For Southwest Airlines, operating three to four daily flights to a particular city means that it's not getting the most it can from its investment. Southwest will benefit by redeploying capacity from these smaller cities to large markets where it can operate more efficiently and thereby mount a stronger challenge to the legacy carriers.

In fact, on the same day that Southwest announced these service cuts, it also announced that it had acquired six new slot pairs from American Airlines at New York's LaGuardia Airport. (These slots were sold as part of American's merger with US Airways.) At LaGuardia, Southwest will now operate 33 daily departures, more than enough to efficiently utilize its fixed costs on the ground.

Foolish bottom line

Just a few years ago, Southwest Airlines was the clear king of the U.S. airline industry. Today, Delta Air Lines has already surpassed it in terms of profitability; American and United are hoping to catch up soon. In order to regain its leadership position, Southwest needs to be even more ruthless about keeping costs down by utilizing assets efficiently.

As a result, Southwest is pulling out of some of its smallest markets in order to double down on larger, more promising opportunities. For travelers headed to or from smaller markets, the loss of service on Southwest could lead to higher ticket prices. However, fliers in the biggest metro areas will be the beneficiaries, as continued growth by Southwest will help offset the impact of consolidation, keeping ticket prices in check.



Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[Ty Webb]

Not to mention paying for that type after I was hired, was more then paid for vs AAI pay. Comparing the two it was paid back in the first month or two. I never wanted to go to the airline that paid regional rates to fly Boeings. Yes GL I realize pay at SWA sucked pre 2001. I didn't work here then. I wouldnt have applied then. Some of you really need to learn what PFT is. It's used as poorly as the term scab. Some of you FATS are dilusional of the financial shape AAI was in. Not to mention the new healthy Delta.

So, you still want to debate this crap, huh?

Someone insults your airline for requiring pilots to have a 737 type and you want to lash out at AirTran pilots, huh?

You really are a horse's ass, aren't you?

I'll put my decision to go to AAI in 2001 against your decision to go to SWA any day. If it wasn't for buying AirTran, most of you 2001 guys would just now be getting your first upgrades, and then sitting reserve for years. . . . I've been a line-holding Captain for 9 years already, while enjoying a 48-minute commute from the beach.

Hey. . . . it looks good on you, Chief. :laugh:

 

[Tripower455]

Not to mention paying for that type after I was hired, was more then paid for vs AAI pay. Comparing the two it was paid back in the first month or two. I never wanted to go to the airline that paid regional rates to fly Boeings. Yes GL I realize pay at SWA sucked pre 2001. I didn't work here then. I wouldnt have applied then. Some of you really need to learn what PFT is. It's used as poorly as the term scab. Some of you FATS are dilusional of the financial shape AAI was in. Not to mention the new healthy Delta.

The irony here is that Valujet actually was a PFT outfit..... As in you had to pay VJ directly, 5 figures for the privilege of yanking gear in a ratty old DC-9, for a bunch of scabs, no less.

 

[vixin]

Yep, but hey don't mention that. AAI was the place to be, it was run well and the pilots where all so happy. Non of them had apps out anywhere.

 

[-9Capt]

The irony here is that Valujet actually was a PFT outfit..... As in you had to pay VJ directly, 5 figures for the privilege of yanking gear in a ratty old DC-9, for a bunch of scabs, no less.

That's why I never worked there.

 

[Tripower455]

That's why I never worked there.

Me either.....

The irony is that SW has never been PFT, and VJ, which became AT, has.