Lear 45 vs. Citation Excel

[400A]

Hawker 750:

1000ft / 30c needs 5610ft. 2080 NBAA IFR. Like the XR, Fill the seats/ Fill the Tanks and no where near gross. Lots of baggage in the 750 with the external compartment and re-done interior compartments.

A few older Hawkers are available with this set up.

Nice and roomy flight deck also. Pro-line 21 is awesome!

 

[Tgaug6300]

Cessna list payload with full fuel and 2 pilots at 860 lbs.

Does yours have a APU?

The 2 I fly on rare occasions can carry 3 to 4 with full tanks.

Yeah, ours has the APU (APU was an option on the XL, and standard equipment on the XLS. There were only about 5 that came off the line without one).

Ours is pretty light but even if you use the 860lbs that is still four 200 pounders. Way more than just 2 paxs.

NGT, you said boots are for Turbo Props. What 560XL were you flying with boots (or do you mean the ones on the horizontal stab)?

 

[EngineThunder]

Never trust performance numbers from a Kent State grad. If they could do math, they would have gone to Riddle!

I fly both and can't stand either! If bag's aren't a major issue I would look at a Hawker. Citation is more dependable but slower, lower and rougher with a good cabin and baggage. Boots are for turboprops and single mains are for 172's. 45's are higher, faster and slightly smoother with incredible gear and brakes and as long as a service center is within 1800 miles you will get there nonstop every flight because that is where you are going! Mine probably broke just talking about it. With two departments I have flown 12 45's old and brand new and I pack a bag even if I'm just taxiing it. The 45 cockpit is good for 1.5 hours and the cabin is good for 2,0. The Excel breaks half as much which is every 4th leg and the cabin is good for 3.0 and cockpit for 2.0.. Both airplanes make me miss the King Air.

My bitter side behind me, they are both descent airplanes but you have to know what is more important to you pax because they are very different aircraft.

NGT,
Good one. Are you even current in the Lear 45? I mean actual time in the real airplane. Recurrent at FSI-Atlanta doesn't count. You drive more to the airport off of I-77 don't you?

 

[NGT]

NGT, you said boots are for Turbo Props. What 560XL were you flying with boots (or do you mean the ones on the horizontal stab)?[/quote]

Yes, the ones I use to rotate and flare. When your based in the same city NASA uses for ice research they do not give you great confidence.

And I fly the 45 enough to remind them to send the check but not enough for them to realize I have no idea what I'm doing! ERAU & OU all the way!!!!

CL300 + CL300 does not equal CL605. Is this more Flashes Math 101!(Make sure the raft has paddles and HoHo's!!)

 

[cyork25]

Why don't you look at a 60. Good cabin, great range (i've had ours up 5.5 hours LRC and landed with 1200 lbs), climbs like a homesick angel, cheap to operate and never breaks. I have 1000 hrs in our 60 and it has never left me stranded and i have never canceled a flight due to maintenance. The breaks are a little small, but the thrust reversers work great. As long as you have 5000+ft the 60 is a great machine. I can't speak the other two though.

 

[CRAZY LEGS]

So we are looking at a Lear 45 or a Citation Excel-Leaning more towards the Excel. Just wanted to see what people thought of each. Anyone have experience in both.

Maintenance Issues in the Lear?

Will the LR45 do NYC to PHX non-stop most of the time?

Any other advice on what to look for or opinions would be great!

Thx

(and NO were not hiring!)

No experience in the Excel but over 2500 hrs in the 45. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been unable to dispatch in the 45. That’s a lot of legs in a Learjet. The 45 got off to a rough start partly because it was a clean sheet design, but it is a mature product now with over 400 40/45’s in service.

The 45 will make it to TEB-PHX with 4 PAX and avg. 50kt headwind and land with ~ 800 lbs (including the early descent) provided that you execute the LRC profile properly. People that say that the 45 is less than a 4 hour airplane are not operating the aircraft correctly.

It boils down to what is important to your owners. Do they want to almost be able to stand up like in the Excel or are speed and efficiency more important to them?

Do they realize that to approach the same range as the 45 that they will have to fly nearly 100 kts slower in the Excel? That’s a lot of speed to give up.

Do they realize that even though the Excel is lighter and holds more fuel that it can’t fly as far? That fact speaks to the design of the aircraft and it is easy to see that the 45 is way more efficient.

Knowing this, have your owners actually sit down in both aircraft, or better yet have them demo both. I think what they will find is that even though you can’t stand up in the 45 that your seated head and shoulder room is better due to the oval cabin and flat floor.

As a pilot, do you want to fly at .80 between 450-490 or .70 between 410-450?

Do you want dual main gears with massive brakes, or one main gear bearing a lot of weight?

Do you want modern systems with full EICAS messaging or just some pretty glass?

And finally, is it important for your flight department to have a good looking airplane?

 

[NCherches]

If only the Excel had club seating for 8! Side facing couches suck if you marketers are listening!

 

[BoilerUP]

If only the Excel had club seating for 8! Side facing couches suck if you marketers are listening!

Pretty sure there's an available double club for the Encore+...can't see why somebody couldn't fix one up for an Excel.

 

[BoilerUP]

The 45 will make it to TEB-PHX with 4 PAX and avg. 50kt headwind and land with ~ 800 lbs (including the early descent) provided that you execute the LRC profile properly.

Will 800lb of fuel give you IFR reserves at low altitude in that 45?

That's lower than my comfort level in a piddly Citation II...

 

[CRAZY LEGS]

Will 800lb of fuel give you IFR reserves at low altitude in that 45?

That's lower than my comfort level in a piddly Citation II...
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Phoenix- IFR?

800 lbs of gas gives you a solid 50 minutes down low to find a place.

 

[400A]

Land with 800 lbs after riding for 4+ hours with a mask on.........uh,,,,,, NO!

 

[CRAZY LEGS]

Land with 800 lbs after riding for 4+ hours with a mask on.........uh,,,,,, NO!

You wear a mask when you fly?

That must be miserable

 

[NCherches]

Anyone ever seen a double club seating for an Excel? Doesnt seem like it would work...

 

[400A]

You wear a mask when you fly?

That must be miserable

Only above FL410, you know, like the regs call for, and anyone with out a death wish would do. Check your Time of useful consciousness up there.

I have had a windshield depart...you?

 

[400A]

Anyone ever seen a double club seating for an Excel? Doesnt seem like it would work...

I have see Club and 3/4 and then a single side facing seat on the left side. I do not believe there is room for an aft facing seat between the door and the cockpit bulkhead.