Lear 45 vs. Citation Excel

[NCherches]

So we are looking at a Lear 45 or a Citation Excel-Leaning more towards the Excel. Just wanted to see what people thought of each. Anyone have experience in both.

Maintenance Issues in the Lear?

Will the LR45 do NYC to PHX non-stop most of the time?

Any other advice on what to look for or opinions would be great!

Thx

(and NO were not hiring!)

 

[LJ45]

that is 1854 nm from TEB to PHX, not going to happen either one of those airplanes on a regular basis.

 

[BEfly]

XL, XLS or XLS+????

 

[NCherches]

Probably the Old School XL

 

[jonjuan]

How many pax? More than 2 pax in the XL and you're leaving gas behind.

 

[400A]

We recently tried all of the "Mids" out and went with the Hawker.

In my opinion the 45 does not have a 1845 mile cabin, though if the XR mods are done you would not have to leave any fuel behind. The 45 and XL's Range are also predicated on cruise in the Mid 40's. I would not operate a 45 that was not on pro parts at minimum.

We liked the XL's Cabin and Baggage, but the ride was the deal breaker for us. It is miserable in anything more than light turbulence.

Both the 45 and XL are not very comfortable up front for long range trips.

The Hawker does burn more fuel than Both the 45 and XL but we have found if we run it at .76 it is not so bad.

 

[bizjet800]

I flew the 45 for a few years and its a great plane!
I don't know anything about the Excel. Unless you're a salesman, its nearly impossible to make NYC to PHX. The baggage space is awesome. We went to Europe in it with 6 pax, 4 sets of golf clubs, it was tight but it fit! As far as MX, I didn't have that many issues. The biggest problems we're with the computers-just re-boot and that solved the problem.

 

[Cpt Splash]

I flew both the Excel and the LR45. The Excel has a better cabin and baggage and lower maintenance costs. If you want to pack up the plane with pax and full fuel, you have a much better chance with the Lear. The range and speed are better on the lear, plus it handles like a sports car. The PHX to NYC mission is more doable in the Lear

 

[hammer2]

I did GYR to MMU 5 pax in LR 45. Couldn't do it the other way.

 

[Redtailer]

I have flown the 45 and am familiar with the XL. Most of the comments on here seem to be right on.

It boils down to the XL having a more comfortable cabin overall, although that may not be saying much, but the 45 is the performer. I have never been disappointed with the 45's performance in loading bags, people, gas, and a not so long runway. On a good day loading of the two aircraft are comparable, but if you have to carry extra fuel for alternates and such or have multiple SUVs backing up to the airplane the XL will bite you.

PHX-NYC in the 45 maybe with a good tailwind. I have heard guys doing SEA-NYC, but it was with a 120kt tailwind. Every time I did it I had to stop in Salina.

Longest legs that I have not had a problem with a full bag load and 4-5 pax was Florida Keys to Cleveland/HPN/TEB off of a 4000ft strip.

 

[NCherches]

How much runway does the Lear 45 use for max weight at like 90 degrees F and around 1000 ft asl.

 

[EngineThunder]

How much runway does the Lear 45 use for max weight at like 90 degrees F and around 1000 ft asl.

At 21,500 it looks like it would be right around 5700 feet with the XR (BR engines). It would be around 6700 feet for a Lear 45 with the AR engines.

 

[Tgaug6300]

How many pax? More than 2 pax in the XL and you're leaving gas behind.

What is the BOW on your airplane? Our XL is 12,235lbs, max fuel 6740lbs. With a MGTOW of 20,200lbs. How are you leaving gas with more than two people?

PA: 1000ft
30c
20,200lbs = 4270ft

 

[NGT]

At 21,500 it looks like it would be right around 5700 feet with the XR (BR engines). It would be around 6700 feet for a Lear 45 with the AR engines.

Never trust performance numbers from a Kent State grad. If they could do math, they would have gone to Riddle!

I fly both and can't stand either! If bag's aren't a major issue I would look at a Hawker. Citation is more dependable but slower, lower and rougher with a good cabin and baggage. Boots are for turboprops and single mains are for 172's. 45's are higher, faster and slightly smoother with incredible gear and brakes and as long as a service center is within 1800 miles you will get there nonstop every flight because that is where you are going! Mine probably broke just talking about it. With two departments I have flown 12 45's old and brand new and I pack a bag even if I'm just taxiing it. The 45 cockpit is good for 1.5 hours and the cabin is good for 2,0. The Excel breaks half as much which is every 4th leg and the cabin is good for 3.0 and cockpit for 2.0.. Both airplanes make me miss the King Air.

My bitter side behind me, they are both descent airplanes but you have to know what is more important to you pax because they are very different aircraft.

 

[400A]

What is the BOW on your airplane? Our XL is 12,235lbs, max fuel 6740lbs. With a MGTOW of 20,200lbs. How are you leaving gas with more than two people?

PA: 1000ft
30c
20,200lbs = 4270ft

Cessna list payload with full fuel and 2 pilots at 860 lbs.

Does yours have a APU?

The 2 I fly on rare occasions can carry 3 to 4 with full tanks.

 

[400A]

Hawker 750:

1000ft / 30c needs 5610ft. 2080 NBAA IFR. Like the XR, Fill the seats/ Fill the Tanks and no where near gross. Lots of baggage in the 750 with the external compartment and re-done interior compartments.

A few older Hawkers are available with this set up.

Nice and roomy flight deck also. Pro-line 21 is awesome!

 

[Tgaug6300]

Cessna list payload with full fuel and 2 pilots at 860 lbs.

Does yours have a APU?

The 2 I fly on rare occasions can carry 3 to 4 with full tanks.

Yeah, ours has the APU (APU was an option on the XL, and standard equipment on the XLS. There were only about 5 that came off the line without one).

Ours is pretty light but even if you use the 860lbs that is still four 200 pounders. Way more than just 2 paxs.

NGT, you said boots are for Turbo Props. What 560XL were you flying with boots (or do you mean the ones on the horizontal stab)?

 

[EngineThunder]

Never trust performance numbers from a Kent State grad. If they could do math, they would have gone to Riddle!

I fly both and can't stand either! If bag's aren't a major issue I would look at a Hawker. Citation is more dependable but slower, lower and rougher with a good cabin and baggage. Boots are for turboprops and single mains are for 172's. 45's are higher, faster and slightly smoother with incredible gear and brakes and as long as a service center is within 1800 miles you will get there nonstop every flight because that is where you are going! Mine probably broke just talking about it. With two departments I have flown 12 45's old and brand new and I pack a bag even if I'm just taxiing it. The 45 cockpit is good for 1.5 hours and the cabin is good for 2,0. The Excel breaks half as much which is every 4th leg and the cabin is good for 3.0 and cockpit for 2.0.. Both airplanes make me miss the King Air.

My bitter side behind me, they are both descent airplanes but you have to know what is more important to you pax because they are very different aircraft.

NGT,
Good one. Are you even current in the Lear 45? I mean actual time in the real airplane. Recurrent at FSI-Atlanta doesn't count. You drive more to the airport off of I-77 don't you?

 

[NGT]

NGT, you said boots are for Turbo Props. What 560XL were you flying with boots (or do you mean the ones on the horizontal stab)?[/quote]

Yes, the ones I use to rotate and flare. When your based in the same city NASA uses for ice research they do not give you great confidence.

And I fly the 45 enough to remind them to send the check but not enough for them to realize I have no idea what I'm doing! ERAU & OU all the way!!!!

CL300 + CL300 does not equal CL605. Is this more Flashes Math 101!(Make sure the raft has paddles and HoHo's!!)

 

[cyork25]

Why don't you look at a 60. Good cabin, great range (i've had ours up 5.5 hours LRC and landed with 1200 lbs), climbs like a homesick angel, cheap to operate and never breaks. I have 1000 hrs in our 60 and it has never left me stranded and i have never canceled a flight due to maintenance. The breaks are a little small, but the thrust reversers work great. As long as you have 5000+ft the 60 is a great machine. I can't speak the other two though.