Lear 45 vs. Citation Excel

[CRAZY LEGS]

So we are looking at a Lear 45 or a Citation Excel-Leaning more towards the Excel. Just wanted to see what people thought of each. Anyone have experience in both.

Maintenance Issues in the Lear?

Will the LR45 do NYC to PHX non-stop most of the time?

Any other advice on what to look for or opinions would be great!

Thx

(and NO were not hiring!)

No experience in the Excel but over 2500 hrs in the 45. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been unable to dispatch in the 45. That’s a lot of legs in a Learjet. The 45 got off to a rough start partly because it was a clean sheet design, but it is a mature product now with over 400 40/45’s in service.

The 45 will make it to TEB-PHX with 4 PAX and avg. 50kt headwind and land with ~ 800 lbs (including the early descent) provided that you execute the LRC profile properly. People that say that the 45 is less than a 4 hour airplane are not operating the aircraft correctly.

It boils down to what is important to your owners. Do they want to almost be able to stand up like in the Excel or are speed and efficiency more important to them?

Do they realize that to approach the same range as the 45 that they will have to fly nearly 100 kts slower in the Excel? That’s a lot of speed to give up.

Do they realize that even though the Excel is lighter and holds more fuel that it can’t fly as far? That fact speaks to the design of the aircraft and it is easy to see that the 45 is way more efficient.

Knowing this, have your owners actually sit down in both aircraft, or better yet have them demo both. I think what they will find is that even though you can’t stand up in the 45 that your seated head and shoulder room is better due to the oval cabin and flat floor.

As a pilot, do you want to fly at .80 between 450-490 or .70 between 410-450?

Do you want dual main gears with massive brakes, or one main gear bearing a lot of weight?

Do you want modern systems with full EICAS messaging or just some pretty glass?

And finally, is it important for your flight department to have a good looking airplane?

 

[NCherches]

If only the Excel had club seating for 8! Side facing couches suck if you marketers are listening!

 

[BoilerUP]

If only the Excel had club seating for 8! Side facing couches suck if you marketers are listening!

Pretty sure there's an available double club for the Encore+...can't see why somebody couldn't fix one up for an Excel.

 

[BoilerUP]

The 45 will make it to TEB-PHX with 4 PAX and avg. 50kt headwind and land with ~ 800 lbs (including the early descent) provided that you execute the LRC profile properly.

Will 800lb of fuel give you IFR reserves at low altitude in that 45?

That's lower than my comfort level in a piddly Citation II...

 

[CRAZY LEGS]

Will 800lb of fuel give you IFR reserves at low altitude in that 45?

That's lower than my comfort level in a piddly Citation II...
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Phoenix- IFR?

800 lbs of gas gives you a solid 50 minutes down low to find a place.

 

[400A]

Land with 800 lbs after riding for 4+ hours with a mask on.........uh,,,,,, NO!

 

[CRAZY LEGS]

Land with 800 lbs after riding for 4+ hours with a mask on.........uh,,,,,, NO!

You wear a mask when you fly?

That must be miserable

 

[NCherches]

Anyone ever seen a double club seating for an Excel? Doesnt seem like it would work...

 

[400A]

You wear a mask when you fly?

That must be miserable

Only above FL410, you know, like the regs call for, and anyone with out a death wish would do. Check your Time of useful consciousness up there.

I have had a windshield depart...you?

 

[400A]

Anyone ever seen a double club seating for an Excel? Doesnt seem like it would work...

I have see Club and 3/4 and then a single side facing seat on the left side. I do not believe there is room for an aft facing seat between the door and the cockpit bulkhead.

 

[NCherches]

Thats what you get for flying Ratheon Products... our Citation Windshields are made to stay on the aircraft

 

[400A]

Thats what you get for flying Ratheon Products... our Citation Windshields are made to stay on the aircraft

It was not a Raytheon/ Hawker/ Beech product.

It has even happened on Boeing products.

BTW, How does that Citation Windshield heat work? I know the ones I flew were loads of fun to taxi in the rain. Not to mention you need to visit the chiropractor after a flight in turbulence.

I would certainly worry about this in your Cessna since you are always having to have your plastic windows measured to see if they are thick enough.

 

[BoilerUP]

BTW, How does that Citation Windshield heat work? I know the ones I flew were loads of fun to taxi in the rain.

I can answer that one:

NOT VERY WELL.

Going from FL380 to southern Louisiana or Mississippi in the summer is a recipe for hardcore condensation, no matter what you try to do to fight it.

Too bad the CJ2+ doesn't have 'lectric heat...

 

[400A]

I can answer that one:

NOT VERY WELL.

Going from FL380 to southern Louisiana or Mississippi in the summer is a recipe for hardcore condensation, no matter what you try to do to fight it.

Too bad the CJ2+ doesn't have 'lectric heat...

That is the way I remember it in the I, II, V and Ultra. I believe they are finally heating them on the CJ4.

 

[CA1900]

BTW, How does that Citation Windshield heat work?

Since we're talking about the Excel, I can say it works very well. It's electric, heated by engine-driven alternators, and we leave it on all day. Never had any issues with it, and it stays toasty warm (and condensation-free).

 

[400A]

Since we're talking about the Excel, I can say it works very well. It's electric, heated by engine-driven alternators, and we leave it on all day. Never had any issues with it, and it stays toasty warm (and condensation-free).

I knew that. VII does too. He does not fly the Excel though and we are just bustin' each others chops and having some fun. I have flown Cessna's and would happy to fly them again. He has a Raytheon bur under his saddle for some reason though.

 

[NCherches]

Its nothing personal... Raytheon is simply as stable as a fat girl in a canoe... I grew up in Wichita and they did some really shadey things to a lot of good people.

I like ya 400A cause you too have flown the Starship!

 

[400A]

Its nothing personal... Raytheon is simply as stable as a fat girl in a canoe... I grew up in Wichita and they did some really shadey things to a lot of good people.

I like ya 400A cause you too have flown the Starship!

Yep, about 400 hours in it.

I know what you mean. I was an employee for 6.5 years. Thats I why I left.

Still love the products tough. Many friends still work there so I have to support them.

 

[EngineThunder]

NGT, you said boots are for Turbo Props. What 560XL were you flying with boots (or do you mean the ones on the horizontal stab)?

Yes, the ones I use to rotate and flare. When your based in the same city NASA uses for ice research they do not give you great confidence.

And I fly the 45 enough to remind them to send the check but not enough for them to realize I have no idea what I'm doing! ERAU & OU all the way!!!!

CL300 + CL300 does not equal CL605. Is this more Flashes Math 101!(Make sure the raft has paddles and HoHo's!!)[/quote]

NGT,Heads up. Stay far away the YNG area on Tuesday. Going to be getting my 3 takeoffs/landings in the CL300. Full supply of Twinkies/Ho Ho's already on board.