Lear 25D: Pros and cons please

[McLovin]

Hi,

I have a friend who owns a turboprop and wants to upgrade to a jet badly. He was approached by a broker who is trying to put him in a Lear 25D. Let's assume that it is RVSM. I'm not sure if it is. I know only Citation and Hawker products.

Can you share the pros and cons from a pilot stand point and also passenger?

Thanks in advance.

 

[cezzna]

Pro's-- It's fast.

Con's--- everything else not mentioned above.

 

[McLovin]

Pro's-- It's fast.

Con's--- everything else not mentioned above.

ahah tell me something I don't know. actual payload, not what the plane is capable, NBAA IFR range, etc...

 

[Rick1128]

ahah tell me something I don't know. actual payload, not what the plane is capable, NBAA IFR range, etc...

First of all the 20 series is a lot more capable than the performance charts give it credit for. Not that any of us do that.

One of the big issues is maintenance. Several of the manufacturers of Learjet components have gone out of business, so getting new parts is a crap shoot. Finding an avionics shop that can work on the Autopilot properly are few and far between. Overhauls are getting outrageous. The last one I did about 12 years ago was over 400K. And since GE shut down their CJ610 facilities in Brazil, getting parts is becoming more and more difficult. And the military parts are not legal, though there are a few bottom feeders out there that are using them.

Depending on where the aircraft has been based and how it has been treated, will have a major effect on how much the major inspections are. The three major inspections are the 12 year, 12,000 and 20,000 hr inspections. None of them are cheap and the aircraft will down for a minimum of 3 weeks.

Now lets talk about fuel. The 20 series has NEVER met a fuel truck it didn't like. It has been awhile since I have flown one, but it can carry around 5900 pounds of fuel. With that (depending on how you fly it, stage lengths, which wing and the particular engines) you have about 3 to 3 1/2 hours of fuel.

Noise is another issue. More and more airports are restricting access to non-stage 3 aircraft. For all intents and purposes, the 20's are a stage 0 aircraft.

As for speed. I used to flight plan for 440 kts. Most high time Lear guys will try to fly it at .78 to .80. These are high cruise numbers. Normal cruise is .75 to .76.

For the passengers: The potty is VERY public. Bags are a @#$%^&* _itch to load. Not a lot of cubes in the baggage compartment.

For the pilot: Cockpit is TIGHT. If you are over about 5'10", you need a big crowbar to get into the seat. No room for Jepps. Plan on NOS charts. Heating and AC are weak in the cockpit. Careful fuel management is needed. Windshield is anti-iced by bleed air and can fog up quite rapidly. So you need to have the windshield bleed air on almost from start of taxi. In the passenger configuration it is almost impossible to get out of CG. In the freight configuration, you can get out out of CG, but you have to work at it. IF you have an engine failure on takeoff, the aircraft will still climb better than most other jets in its class can do on both engines. If the engine is maintained properly with the proper parts, it is practically bullet proof. It will take a lot to get it to fail.

He may be getting this aircraft very cheap, but he will pay for it down the road. He can either pay up front or out the tailpipe. I don't know your friend's budget, but he might want to take a look at a early 35, Westwind or Hawker 400 or 600 fan. These aircraft are presently under a million.

 

[Quimby]

As long as the buyer knows the a/c will basically be worthless when he's done with it. 25D's are great machines, just past their prime....and I'm not telling you anything you don't know.

There's some higher time 35's on the market (which may/may not be RVSM), which may be worth considering. At least if they weren't RVSM, they'd have a lot more range than a non-RVSM 25D.

There's plenty of high time 20 series guys on here that can give better specifics.

http://www.controller.com/list/list...type=1&Manu=LEARJET&bcatid=13&Pref=0&Thumbs=1

some 35's

He also might consider a DA-10/100. I would definitely get something with fans though.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If your friend is a pilot he will have a blast in a 25D. I flew one for about 500hrs and its a great airplane with tons of power...

Aside from that its about 10yrs past its useful life? Even the lowest charter operations have ditched them. Fuel burn and management is a full time job on a 25. Noise will keep you out of most places now?....and mx?? we couldn't keep an autopilot working 10yrs ago, I hate to see what they are like now.

The above guys are right, I'd suspect you may get one for almost nothing, throw a ton of money at an unreliable classic, then sell it for nothing as I bet the Mexicans aren't even buying these anymore.

He needs to fire that broker, lol.

 

[McLovin]

Thank you guys for the great inputs. Much appreciated.

apparently, the aircraft is stage III. Welcome to Santa Monica lol

 

[MD11Drvr]

Thank you guys for the great inputs. Much appreciated.

apparently, the aircraft is stage III. Welcome to Santa Monica lol

I have been out of Lears for 14 years now, I have no idea how that on is stage 3. I guess if you reduce thrust to about half of T/O Pwr at the start of the second segment I could maybe see it. I could be wrong though I just never figured one for stage 3.

Also take a look at the Sabreliner 65 series if he looking for a bargain. Stand up cabin sort of and not terrible for baggage. If he is a pilot the Sabre was the most stable sweetest flying jet I ever flew. I came out of the Lear into the Sabre and my hands were bored with nothing to do. Had no idea a Jet could be so stable, hell it was only the second jet I flew so limited experience I will admit.

 

[Rick1128]

Thank you guys for the great inputs. Much appreciated.

apparently, the aircraft is stage III. Welcome to Santa Monica lol

It may be Stage 3, but the operating costs will be out of sight. It is still a throw away aircraft. Under Ski-Doo Jet, Lear has basically denied they ever built the aircraft, so you can forget about any support by Learjet. When you see major operators of 20 series going out of business left and right, there are many 20's on the market for just about scrap value.

As for the Sabre, I don't know about the 65, but the 40 and 60 didn't have any wing deice/anti-ice. And with the step down into the cabin, women tend to dislike the aircraft.

 

[pilotyip]

It has a high accident rate, there must be a reason for that. Our company has a 25D it doesn't fly much and is in the shop a lot. Why doesn't it fly a lot, it is expensive to operate.