Latest on skywest/Coex

[Mookie]

smf emb base...small but still there.

mookie

 

[Vorleron]

The only thing I'm not understanding is why the Express people can't stay at Skywest (or Commutair) if they want to when Express recalls.

It's not like I wouldn't want to go back to Express, but it would be nice to have the option. It would also make going to Skywest feel more like a "career enhancing experience" knowing that all the hard work and positve attitude might possibly mean something in the future, however small that chance might be.

(Instead of just something to do to get a paycheck, accruing no useful seniority, until Express gets enough Kopectate to get the $hit moving again!)

I don't see how CAL paying for our training at Skywest, and then recalling us and paying for our training at Express again in less than a year could benifit them, particularly when they seem to have mainline pilots coming out of their ears. You would think they would be glad to get rid of us?

As I said, I don't understand why we don't at least have the option...but as usual I might be wrong and probably am...

 

[Bluto]

Vorleron, I'm sorry, I just have to rip on you for a minute.

"...knowing that all the hard work and positve attitude might possibly mean something in the future."
Hey, you had me going for a minute there. I thought you were serious! No offense, but wherever you go your hard work and positive attitude mean very little as far as career enhancement. You are a number. Do you think if you'd been just a little more positive you could have avoided the furlough?

"...and then recalling us and paying for our training at Express again in less than a year." Recalls in less than a year? Now I KNOW you're joking! Whatever gave you the idea that recalls would start in less than a year? Anything you hear about recalls is subject to change at any time. There were people who had the letters in their hands only to have class cancelled. Now there are rumors of more furloughs floating around. I'd plan on spending some time at Skywest if you're going.

I do agree though. It'd be nice to have the opportunity to stay at SkyWest. I guess we'll see what happens with that.

Sorry if I was a little harsh, I'm just amazed at the optimism from some people. Guess I'm just jealous. Good luck at Skywest.

 

[NEDude]

I was under the impression that Coex guys could stay at Commutair if they wished.

 

[Vorleron]

Bluto, in defense, "hard work and attitude" I mean in a training cycle, and while on probation. We all know what happens to that when you hit that big second year pay!

And, as for recalls, probability dictates that the longer your furloughed the closer you are to recalls up to 5 years at which point you will not be recalled... Seriously though, Express is saying March, 2004. So that's where I got the "less than 1 year, but I do know they might as well have said "5 years from next tuesday..."

The rumor is that the Commutair people HAVE TO GO BACK. I wonder if they knew that and wonder how Express plans on enforcing it. If you just resign from Express before the recalls, and stay where your at, what can they do?

Or to put it another way: I know how a company can get rid of you, but I don't see how they can force you to come back. Last I checked I was hired, not BOUGHT! (They can't fire me, slaves have to be shot!)

 

[WmuBronco]

I too wish we had the option of staying, although depending on how good this new so-called "enhanced flow-through" turns out, it would make the decision easier. I wonder if they will give us the option after we finish training to give up our Xjet #. I guess it is time to call Neal unless the MOU explains things better. Hopefully we'll see it in the mail soon!

Also in regards to our call back to Xjet, I'm estimating around February or March it will start back up. If you look at the recall schedule prior to the CAL furloughs, you'll see 32 a month starting in August. Well about 150 guys from CAL flow down, so divide 150 by 32 you come up with approximately a 5 month delay in the Xjet recall schedule. I got a feeling that us higher up guys/gals on the recall list might get this pay protection again but now at SkyWest pay rates instead of Commuteair, I guess we'll see.

Oh, by the way thanks for the pilot domcilies info.

 

[Bluto]

Good points, all

WMU, I already talked to Neal about this and he said no-go on staying at Skywest. The way I see it is this: CAL paid for the training at CommutAir and since they arranged the employment they can pretty well dictate how long that arrangement lasts. I agree that it would be nice to have the option to stay.

"I got a feeling that us higher up guys/gals on the recall list might get this pay protection again but now at SkyWest pay rates instead of Commuteair." I very seriously doubt it. Dude, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Vorleron, thanks for not taking me too seriously before! The latest I heard from Neal on recalls is 8-10 months at the earliest. I guess that's pretty close to what you said.

'but I do know they might as well have said "5 years from next tuesday..." ' <---- Well said! Never were truer words spoken!

 

[Dr. Hootie]

Big decision, looking for input

O.K. so here's a question, it's a "what would you do?" question.

I'm a furloughed Coex pilot (hire date 05/21/01). I might have an opportunity to get on with a 135 operator flying Metro's. When talking to the D.O., he laughingly stated that upgrade times were pretty quick (I didn't get a firm time frame).
So the question is this, should I fly for the 135 operator:

(maintenance - average at best; schedule - gruelling; pay - f/o's eating Ramen; managers - crusty; domiciles - let's not even talk about that; you all get the picture - a typical 135 metro job)

and hope to upgrade soon and start getting some Turbine PIC or should I go with Skywest and be an F/O (pt. 121 time) until I can be an F/O again for Coex.

It may seem like a no brainer, but it's a gamble because of the question of how much longer I will be furloughed - it's a 1 year commitment at the 135 job, not to mention the risk of giving up a 121 postition to fly in the aforementioned 135 enviroment.

I know this is a tangent, but I know I can pick up some opinions here on this thread. Thanks in advance.

The good Doctor Hootie.

 

[Bluto]

I'd go with the 135 Gig. It'll be a long time before you can get turbine PIC at XJT. A one year commitment isn't that bad when you think that with your seniority you probably won't see a recall for about a year anyway. If it does happen earlier (anybody want to make a small wager that it won't??) you can always bypass your recall while building turbine PIC. If it's that bad, you can always quit and find another job in the meantime.

 

[embdrvr]

135 Metro job

So let's say you take the Metro position. Will they expect you to extend that 1 year committment if you upgrade. I know of some operators that extend the committment before typing you. I'd ask about that or you may find yourself in a position where you can't upgrade without being able to go back to COex.

 

[s.o.sJTB]

Re: Big decision, looking for input

and hope to upgrade soon and start getting some Turbine PIC or should I go with Skywest and be an F/O (pt. 121 time) until I can be an F/O again for Coex.

What good is 1,000 turbine PIC hours going to do for you in this environement? Go to SkyWest you will upgrade in about a year, 2 at the most, work for a great company with great employees, make more money in your second year than you would flying 135 frieght, and have a better quality of life.

 

[Metro A-Team]

To Metro or not to Metro...

Dr. Hootie,

The Metro is truely a challenging and fun airplane to fly. If you're used to "wheels up...autopilot on" you will have fun in the Sanantone Sewer Tube.

If you bypass the SkyWest thing and keep your number @ Xjet AND get a paycheck with the possibility of the PIC Turb. I'd probably try it. You've got the 121 box checked but without the PIC you still will be unable to apply to some majors (like FedEX).

Now. s.o.sJTB does have some valid points and yes, 135 can be scary at times but all in all the Metro is a pretty decent airframe. I guess there are still about 600 flying in the US. I have about 2000 hrs in "The Tube" and only had one REAL emergency.

Send me a private message if you want more info about 135, freight, or Metros. Good luck.

 

[Dr. Hootie]

Fellow Pilots,

Thanks for all the great input. As many of you know, making decisions like these are best made well informed. Bluto, Embdrvr, SOSjtb, and Metro A team, you all gave great responses. Thank you.

sosjtb, to answer your question "what good is 1000 turbine PIC in this enviroment" is this: This enviroment will not be here forever and I'm looking for the best path to the majors. They will be hiring again someday in the distant future and Turbine PIC is the gold standard. I'll be more satisfied and better positioned 18 months from now when being recalled to Coex with 1,000 +- hours turbine PIC than with 1000+- hours turbine SIC. A couple years seating in the right seat, which realistically "in this enviroment" is a guarentee (no more 12 month upgrades as far as I can tell.)

 

[s.o.sJTB]

Upgrades in the Brazzilia at SkyWest were offered to new hire's who had the time back in Dec, most FO's are staying in the RJ's with an upgrade of about 3 years. There will most likely be no Majors hiring aside from SW/JB in the next five years. 1000 hrs of 135 Metro time is going to face you with some stiff competition with those furloughed and looking at the few hiring oppurtunities. I had a choice almost three years ago to take an upgrade into turbine equipment at a very well run 135 company or go to SkyWest, coming here was the best decision I made. At the time I left guys with the time flying for my former frieght company were going to Southwest, that was my Chief's attempt into persuading to stay thankfully I made the right decision since the ones that did stay are trying to get jobs at SkyWest, Comair, ASA etc.

Good luck to you Dr. Hootie whatever you decide I hope it works out for you.

 

[Bluto]

Keep in mind, Skywest is, in effect, a temp job for the Coex furloughees. It is not a career move. When recalled, furloughed Coex pilots at Skywest will have to go back to Coex. Many would prefer the option to stay, but this is just part of the deal.

 

[Vorleron]

Bluto, I understand it's "part of the deal" but I still don't understand how they can enforce it. Did the Commutair people have to sign something? Did Commutair and Skywest agree to terminate everyone upon recall? And why would they give up trained and functioning employees to benefit CAL? Especially if those employees wanted to stay?

I'm not against going back to Express and probably will, but I am "pro-choice" at least on this issue...otherwise the whole affair seems like a great big waste of time. (Not like I don't have a BUNCH of that either! )

 

[WmuBronco]

Ok here is some facts that I got from Neal:

1) Meet and greet interview
2) All positions and bases open, this includes the jets, they'll put us where they need us, jet or prop
3) We have to go back to Express when recalled, this is more of a protection for Skywest, remember they didn't get to do a full interview on us, this way they can get rid of us.


My opinon is that if we go there work hard, stay out of trouble, and they like you, they might give you the option to stay. This is just a theory of course.

 

[captjim]

Cal management isn't responsible for the flowbacks. If Coex pilots are mad about them, they should point the finger right where is belongs, at themselves. The Coex pilots wanted the FTA, they voted for it in their last contract. The flowback provision was a part it. Nobody else is to blame for it, not management, not other airlines.

You sir are incorrect. The flow-through is a side letter and is not in our contract. The company came to the Express pilots (with the concept of a flow-through at least) to help control attrition of the COEX pilot group. The majority of current COEX pilots didn't have anything to do with it's inception nor reeped any rewards of it.

 

[NEDude]

You sir are incorrect. The flow-through is a side letter and is not in our contract. The company came to the Express pilots (with the concept of a flow-through at least) to help control attrition of the COEX pilot group. The majority of current COEX pilots didn't have anything to do with it's inception nor reeped any rewards of it.

Side letter, part of the original contract, MOU. Whatever, it is basically an addendum to the contract; and the COEX pilot group agreed to it. Maybe the majority of current COEX pilots had nothing to do with it, but it was still agreed to by the COEX pilot group. You were hired under the contract (and all subsequent addendums, MOUs etc) that your pilot group agreed to and are thus bound by them. If you didn't like the contractual provisions, you should not have accepted the job. However if I had to make a guess you, like most other COEX pilots, loved the idea of the flowthrough back when things were going well. It is only now that the industry is in the tank that you do not like it. And my point still remains, this was not forced on COEX pilot group by management, other pilot groups. It was a deal that was offered and subsequently agreed to by the COEX pilot group. If you want to be mad at someone over it, blame the current and former COEX pilots who voted in favor of it.

 

[NEDude]

What good is 1,000 turbine PIC hours going to do for you in this environement? Go to SkyWest you will upgrade in about a year, 2 at the most, work for a great company with great employees, make more money in your second year than you would flying 135 frieght, and have a better quality of life.

America West, ATA, Alaska, Jet Blue, Frontier, Southwest, and Air Tran have all hired off and on in this downturn. Additionally some mainline Continental pilots have said that based on fleet plans and age 60 retirements that Continental will have to begin hiring again in 2005. I'd say get your 1000 hours PIC.

If history from the last two downturns holds true this time, a very large percentage of furloughed pilots will not come back when recalled - having left the industry or found other flying jobs. In the summer of 1992 three major airlines had gone under and everyone else had 500-1500 pilots on furlough. Everyone back then was saying that it would be seven or eight years before the majors would be hiring again. But by 1995 the doors were opening back up, and the floodgates were open by 1997. In reality even with all of the furloughes and airline failures, the door was only closed for about five years (or less on some cases - Delta went from 1-6-92 to 10-2-96 without hiring). I think you will see some of the majors begin to hire again within two to three years. With American, United and USAirways it will be longer. And as mentioned before, most of the ones mentioned at the beginning have hired off and on during the downturn, and will probably continue to do so.

I'd say get your 1000 PIC ASAP so you can put yourself in a postion to apply for some of the few openings that do pop up nowdays. And at worst, in a few years when the next boom begins you will be in a position to be at the front of the line.

 

[BE20AV8R]

Coex recalls

I think COEX may have a motive for requiring furloughees to return, I'm just not sure I understand it.

As everything here is, this is what I've been told:
If an XJet guy/gal decides to stay at Skywest, Skywest eats the training cost. If they decide to return to XJet, Xjet pays for their Skywest training. I don't know the specifics, just what I was told in SGU the other day.

Why then would Xjet require them to return? I mean, having to pay a pilot's training twice in a compressed timeframe doesn't seem like the best business-sense to me...

Just an uninformed messenger....

 

[George Jetson]

Re: Coex recalls

I think COEX may have a motive for requiring furloughees to return, I'm just not sure I understand it.

As everything here is, this is what I've been told:
If an XJet guy/gal decides to stay at Skywest, Skywest eats the training cost. If they decide to return to XJet, Xjet pays for their Skywest training. I don't know the specifics, just what I was told in SGU the other day.

Why then would Xjet require them to return? I mean, having to pay a pilot's training twice in a compressed timeframe doesn't seem like the best business-sense to me...

Just an uninformed messenger....

Yes, you are admittedly uninformed, but not to your own fault. It is actually Continental who will reimburse Skywest for the training costs of our furloughed pilots flying at Skywest, not ExpressJet. Furthermore, the requirement that an XJT pilot return to XJT upon his/her recall is based primarily on the fact that Skywest did not "hire" our furloughed pilots. They were pretty much "forced" to take them. Therefore why should Skywest be required to keep them on longterm if the pilot wishes? Shouldn't it be Skywest's decision? That is the reason for the required recall to XJT. Whatever deal an XJT pilot works out with SKYW management is his/her own deal, and not that of ALPA, XJT, or CAL. XJT could care less if this pilot returns to XJT or not, since he/she will have to go through the full initial training program anyways. Doesn't matter if they hire someone off the street or recall the furloughed pilot. There is no savings in training cost.

GJ

 

[captjim]

Side letter, part of the original contract, MOU. Whatever, it is basically an addendum to the contract; and the COEX pilot group agreed to it. Maybe the majority of current COEX pilots had nothing to do with it, but it was still agreed to by the COEX pilot group. You were hired under the contract (and all subsequent addendums, MOUs etc) that your pilot group agreed to and are thus bound by them. If you didn't like the contractual provisions, you should not have accepted the job. However if I had to make a guess you, like most other COEX pilots, loved the idea of the flowthrough back when things were going well. It is only now that the industry is in the tank that you do not like it. And my point still remains, this was not forced on COEX pilot group by management, other pilot groups. It was a deal that was offered and subsequently agreed to by the COEX pilot group. If you want to be mad at someone over it, blame the current and former COEX pilots who voted in favor of it.

NEDude, you seem to have a great deal of hostility towards COEX pilots, what’s the reason?

When did you see me complaining about the flow through. I have no problem with it, and as a matter of fact am interested in an enhanced version of it. The flow through provided a huge amount of movement on this list in the good times. Today during the worst time in commercial aviation it kind of sucks, but it sucks for a lot of pilots. There are people here that lost captain seats and are furloughed and of course no one’s jumping for joy. In a couple years movement will again be brisk in the right direction and everyone will be happy.

However NEDude, your characterizations of COEX pilots are incorrect and you need to get over whatever grudge you have against Express.

 

[BE20AV8R]

Thanks for the clarification George...

 

[jake100]

Ok, as usual, since I don't spend days on here like some people I tend to get confused. From what I have seen and heard.....Skywest tells their people that it will be a full interview and not a meet & greet, meanwhile the CoEx folks are being told by their people to come sign up for the positions at Skywest, they're yours for just showing up. Wow, this is going to be interesting to see who's been telling the truth.

Even better scenario, in my opinion, is 2-3 years down the road when the CoEx guys are getting recalled.... I can imagine the phone call....

CoEx mgmt: Hi Joe, congrats were bringing you back to the family.

Joe: Umm, but I'm a captain on the E120 and getting ready to transition over to the jet here at SKW soon.

CoEX: Oh sorry, you have to come back it's part of the deal. But don't worry, we have a nice FO spot for you at the bottom of the list. You can be right back up to captain in a few years...or so.

And you never know what SKW will say in 2-3 years. "No problem, sure you can stay''...or maybe "see ya, thanks for temping for us"

Oh what a fun and interesting ride its going to be for all!

 

[George Jetson]

From what I have seen and heard.....Skywest tells their people that it will be a full interview and not a meet & greet, meanwhile the CoEx folks are being told by their people to come sign up for the positions at Skywest, they're yours for just showing up. Wow, this is going to be interesting to see who's been telling the truth.

I'm not sure what SKYW management told its pilots in the past but I know for a fact that they will be doing "meet and greet" interviews, and these will be conducted very soon. The hope is to get 6-8 XJT guys into SKYW classes as early as late June to early July.

GJ

 

[Metro A-Team]

Speaking of late June, early July... has anyone heard of a "Firm" class date coming up? And, if it is the hope of X-jet to have 6-8 of their people in class by then will the rest be poolies or will it be a small class? Thanks!

 

[nimtz]

Side letter, part of the original contract, MOU. Whatever, it is basically an addendum to the contract; and the COEX pilot group agreed to it. Maybe the majority of current COEX pilots had nothing to do with it, but it was still agreed to by the COEX pilot group. You were hired under the contract (and all subsequent addendums, MOUs etc) that your pilot group agreed to and are thus bound by them. If you didn't like the contractual provisions, you should not have accepted the job. However if I had to make a guess you, like most other COEX pilots, loved the idea of the flowthrough back when things were going well. It is only now that the industry is in the tank that you do not like it. And my point still remains, this was not forced on COEX pilot group by management, other pilot groups. It was a deal that was offered and subsequently agreed to by the COEX pilot group. If you want to be mad at someone over it, blame the current and former COEX pilots who voted in favor of it.

NE Dude,

Mind your own house please. You do not work for XJet, so you have no clue how our pilots feel or act toward the FTA. There are alot of emotions regarding the issue, but they are wide ranging and I can assure there is no universal opinon. You as an outside observer are seeking to pin our pilot group as a bunch of cry babies who only saw good in the FTA and can't live with the fact that we lived to see the downside. Trust me, I saw downsides to it long before 9-11 and they weren't just potential CAL flowbacks. I doubt you have the slightest clue of the dynamics of all of this.

So until you have a seniority number a CAL or XJet, mind your own house. Wonder why your pilot group is chosing this time to be interested in organizing. Wonder why on Earth Commutair didn't make more of an aggressive grab at the IAH flying. Wonder why Commutair got stuck flying for Continental instead of Airways, which lead to pretty sizeable furloughs there before 9-11.

And for the last time CAL will not be hiring by 2005. After furloughing 175 more just two months ago, I would hope this would of changed your perspective. Any CAL guy that told you different on a jumpseat was sorely mistaken. There are 400+ furloughed plus 118 Express guys which all go back before CAL opens any app windows. There is little to no growth in airframes over the next 3 years and retirements at CAL do not peak significantly until 2006. CAL never has hired pilots like UAL or DAL did in the good days. In fact, CAL didn't even hire in 2000. CAL will be very lucky to have all the furloughed back by 2005. All that makes Gordo content, because he gets his industry leading compensation no matter what and that's all he cares about in the end.

 

[jake100]

I'm not sure what SKYW management told its pilots in the past but I know for a fact that they will be doing "meet and greet" interviews, and these will be conducted very soon. The hope is to get 6-8 XJT guys into SKYW classes as early as late June to early July.

GJ

Well GJ, unless you're a CoEx bigwig (i.e. senior management), I think I'll wait to see what really happens. Is the info that you know for a fact coming from a talking head at the union (and they they never ever put a spin on anything) or are you sleeping with the bigwigs. Maybe it is a meet and greet or maybe it's not....who knows?? I would hate to be a guy going in to meet with the SKW team thinking it's going to be a m & g, and it turns out to be a full interview.

 

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KFFA

is an idiot