Just in on the good ol' Tabloid TV

[HawkerF/O]

I know that Options has certain criteria for the Hawkers to go in there.

Exactly my point. It's doable, and I would do it ,but there MUST be certain contingencies in place in order to do it. A extended crew brief and deciding specifically what to abort for are just 2 that come to mind right away. Would I fly a Hawker that was based there? No.

 

[taloft]

The picture on CNN was sad. Just a long black streak. Only the tail survived.

 

[smfav8r]

A Hawker is not a light jet, nor is a Challenger, GIII, etc and those are just a few of the examples I gave. Also, I said it is something I would not do as a common practice. I would appreciate if you actually read what I wrote before you commented on it.

I did read your entire post and it's all perspective, I consider all those jets you named light jets.

Don't know what your experience is outside the Midwest but, there are many places in the world that don't have nice long runways and flat terrain.

Airlines operate CRJ's out of key west all day long, no leading edge devices, less then 5000ft and bigger then the jets you mentioned.

Look up Quito some-time....imagine flying a DC8 in and out of there....almost 10,000ft above sea level with 18000ft peaks all around....and not lots of runway. They have slots, but they don't do a whole lot and you generally weigh in the 250,000lbs range...

It's all perspective...you say tamato, I say tomoto!

 

[2000flyer]

CRQ runway 24 slopes up from 326ft to 330ft. Runway 6 has a down slope. Looks like he attempted to land around sunup. Might he have tried a landing on runway 6 into the sun and on a downslope? I can see where he could have gotten into a lot of trouble there.

Thats a gradient of only 0.008%. In other words, non-existant. I'd be more concerned if it was approaching 2% which is a limitation on many aircraft.

 

[HMR]

Exactly my point. It's doable, and I would do it ,but there MUST be certain contingencies in place in order to do it. A extended crew brief and deciding specifically what to abort for are just 2 that come to mind right away.

How is that any different than KASE, KEGE, KTEX, KSUN, KTRK, KTVL, KJAC, KTEB, etc.....?

 

[HawkerF/O]

How is that any different than KASE, KEGE, KTEX, KSUN, KTRK, KTVL, KJAC, KTEB, etc.....?

It's really not, but the 1 thing that sets those apart from this airport is my original arguement; they all have 5000 feet or greater runways. That extra 400 feet makes a big difference when you have 4600 feet behind you. Once again, I have not critizised anybody or said they were wrong, it's just not something I would do as an SOP.

Take the Hawker for example. It's a popular MID-SIZE jet. It will fly out of this airport under today's conditions with no problem and fly for a couple of hours with 4 people on board (rough math in my head). But if an engine rolls back an V1, you've got quite a ride in front of you. For you HS125 guys, you can't make this take-off at flaps 0, so you have to go at 15. IF you have had any sime training, you know what a dog that airplane is until you get those flaps up on 1 engine. In a 700a (dont have the 800 book here at home with me), using runway 6, which the winds favor today, you'd ahve to make 564 feet/min (Standard Viz) to 2100 MSL on 1 engine IFR. We all know that Hawker is lucky to meet that with those barn doors out at 15. Put your compass on W, head out over the water so you don't hit anything and hope it climbs.

 

[HawkerF/O]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20060124-0847-bn24plane3.html

 

[smfav8r]

Take the Hawker for example. It's a popular MID-SIZE jet. [/quote]

Someone's got an issue with SIZE

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I did my initial Citation type there. I'm certainly no superstar either. Always had plenty of runway (and no TR's on the plane) Granted we did try to go to Brown airport for the pattern work as much for the congestion as the longer runway. CRQ was very busy, reminded me of PTK without the parallel runway for the pattern work. Departing west out to sea was no issue. Departing to the east toward the mountains took a bit of what if thinking.

 

[sydeseet]

Ah, one of those pilots.

I'd imagine flying a DC-8 but they are long before my time. How much fun can they be really?

The industry doesn't describe a Hawker as a light jet but if it makes you feel better go ahead and call it that. BTW - who is the person with the "size" issue here? Ever seen a short white guy driving a Lincoln Navigator or full size Mercedes. Picture the castle in "Shrek" Ring a bell?

As a former 727 driver, yes 5000' all day is doable but not exactly something to make a career out of. You and I both know that we'd prefer something upwards of 7000' to avoid having to do a flaps 25 takeoff and eat the second segment climb if anything rolls back, which happens much more often on the JT-8D then it ever will on a TFE-731 (Hawker Engine, to name a few).

Airlines operate CRJ's out of Key West, much as Pan AM used to do in 727's, but everytime I've been there in a light jet they are always weight limited due to the high temperature and are looking for volunteers to take the next flight. It's not like they're flying to Seattle either.

No, I've never flown to Quito, which sounds Russian, but I've been to Sun Valley, Jackon WY, and Aspen - you say tomoto I say tomato.

If you click the back arrow a few times you'll find a "Majors" section where there is a private club of Elite Big Iron drivers who look down on cute little corporate jets as hobby flying. Opinions are like, well you know. I'll put my pension, benefits, QOL, and overall career decision against theirs anyday, your's to boot.

Let's call the whole thing off.

 

[Lead Sled]

I don't see the issue here - if you've got the numbers. The problem with airports like this (short runways wiith ILS approaches - Carlsbad, CA and Goshen, IN for example) is some guys tend to fly the glideslope to the touchdown point at ref +10 (or maybe more). That automatically takes off a minimum of 1000' plus even more for the "float" factor. The short runway becomes even shorter. Mix that with a dropoff at the end of the runway and you probably have the best arguement that I can think of to fly the airplane by the book.

By the way, we have our maintenance performed at the Carlsbad airport and we operate our mid-sized, swept wing jet out of there frequently with absolutely no problem.

'Sled

 

[smfav8r]

Nope, Not a major guy and probably a lot younger than you think...born in the 70's

You can put the DC8 into reverse while in the air....trust me it's fun!

Flown into Sun Valley and Aspen......Quito is in Ecuador (South America)....and they are two completely different vegetables.

Have the utmost respect for anyone flying 135 and corporate....

Very similiar job to mine, just smaller, newer and generally nicer equipment.

Eastern flew 727's into Key West also and Piedmont with the F28....the F28 would have been a better example of short runway, no leading edge device and a bigger aircraft.

Couldn't understand a blanket statement about 5000ft min with a light jet, excuse me, a MID-SIZE jet.....which was the reason for my first post...

We are still paid to fly people or boxes from point A to B?

I didn't mean to offend, I just considered it a light jet...find it amusing when folks get wrapped around the axle about size.

I call the A320 a light twin...love getting folks BP up with that one too.

Just like the 737 is FLUF.....FAT LITTLE UGLY F**KER!

Ya'll need a sense of humor!

 

[Lead Sled]

I call the A320 a light twin...love getting folks BP up with that one too. Ya'll need a sense of humor!

I agree. A buddy of mine flies a B747. He calls his C210 his ultralight. I guess size does matter.

'Sled

 

[Flying Illini]

A lot of runway for what? Piston twins, singles and KingAirs don't count. I don't know many Jet pilots that would operate anything bigger than a 5xx series Citation (3-hole falcons excluded) out of a 4600 foot strip unless all other options were exhausted. I think HP Jepps are 5000 feet minimum. Just my .02 cents.

The two aircraft I fly could (and can) do it. (Falcon 10 and 20)

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

I can't imagine why this has turned into a discussion of which aircraft can and cannot make it into this airport. This accident had nothing to do with the runway choice, it most likely had to do with a bad landing after a bad approach. Get it straight, people, most of these accidents have to do with us, not the plane.

Ace