Just in on the good ol' Tabloid TV

[Lead Sled]

I don't see the issue here - if you've got the numbers. The problem with airports like this (short runways wiith ILS approaches - Carlsbad, CA and Goshen, IN for example) is some guys tend to fly the glideslope to the touchdown point at ref +10 (or maybe more). That automatically takes off a minimum of 1000' plus even more for the "float" factor. The short runway becomes even shorter. Mix that with a dropoff at the end of the runway and you probably have the best arguement that I can think of to fly the airplane by the book.

By the way, we have our maintenance performed at the Carlsbad airport and we operate our mid-sized, swept wing jet out of there frequently with absolutely no problem.

'Sled

 

[smfav8r]

Nope, Not a major guy and probably a lot younger than you think...born in the 70's

You can put the DC8 into reverse while in the air....trust me it's fun!

Flown into Sun Valley and Aspen......Quito is in Ecuador (South America)....and they are two completely different vegetables.

Have the utmost respect for anyone flying 135 and corporate....

Very similiar job to mine, just smaller, newer and generally nicer equipment.

Eastern flew 727's into Key West also and Piedmont with the F28....the F28 would have been a better example of short runway, no leading edge device and a bigger aircraft.

Couldn't understand a blanket statement about 5000ft min with a light jet, excuse me, a MID-SIZE jet.....which was the reason for my first post...

We are still paid to fly people or boxes from point A to B?

I didn't mean to offend, I just considered it a light jet...find it amusing when folks get wrapped around the axle about size.

I call the A320 a light twin...love getting folks BP up with that one too.

Just like the 737 is FLUF.....FAT LITTLE UGLY F**KER!

Ya'll need a sense of humor!

 

[Lead Sled]

I call the A320 a light twin...love getting folks BP up with that one too. Ya'll need a sense of humor!

I agree. A buddy of mine flies a B747. He calls his C210 his ultralight. I guess size does matter.

'Sled

 

[Flying Illini]

A lot of runway for what? Piston twins, singles and KingAirs don't count. I don't know many Jet pilots that would operate anything bigger than a 5xx series Citation (3-hole falcons excluded) out of a 4600 foot strip unless all other options were exhausted. I think HP Jepps are 5000 feet minimum. Just my .02 cents.

The two aircraft I fly could (and can) do it. (Falcon 10 and 20)

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

I can't imagine why this has turned into a discussion of which aircraft can and cannot make it into this airport. This accident had nothing to do with the runway choice, it most likely had to do with a bad landing after a bad approach. Get it straight, people, most of these accidents have to do with us, not the plane.

Ace

 

[smfav8r]

I can't imagine why this has turned into a discussion of which aircraft can and cannot make it into this airport. This accident had nothing to do with the runway choice, it most likely had to do with a bad landing after a bad approach. Get it straight, people, most of these accidents have to do with us, not the plane.

Ace

We have a winner!

 

[G21Agoose]

I can't imagine why this has turned into a discussion of which aircraft can and cannot make it into this airport. This accident had nothing to do with the runway choice, it most likely had to do with a bad landing after a bad approach. Get it straight, people, most of these accidents have to do with us, not the plane.

Ace

I agree. We don't know what happened but 4600ft in a 560 is a non issue every day of the week. God bless them all.

 

[G100driver]

Thank-you Ace .... where have you been? I have not heard your voice of reason in a while.

 

[TaxiDriver]

When I was flying Hawkers, I used 5000 feet as a min runway lenght to operate on a regular basis.. Landing is not the problem, it's getting out of there that would concern me, but apparently not many others share my concern I guess...But something without slats, like Hawker, etc, I just can't see it. Once again, my concern would be departing, not landing.

Come on, HawkerF/O, you know that given the conditions for a particular day the Value of D can be computed......making a 4600 ft strip longer than it actually is!

I know you knew that. I was just happy that I remembered that Hawkers had a Value of D.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Come on, HawkerF/O, you know that given the conditions for a particular day the Value of D can be computed......making a 4600 ft strip longer than it actually is!

I know you knew that. I was just happy that I remembered that Hawkers had a Value of D.

If you know anyone that knows how to use those charts 3 days after they leave recurrent, please have them come forward. The Brittish make a fine aircraft, but those charts are for the birds. If I could find the guy that designed those charts, I'd cold cock his a$$.

 

[HawkerF/O]

I'd cold cock his a$$.

There is just something about that statement that does not look right. I'd beat him up is what I was trying to say.

 

[sydeseet]

There is just something about that statement that does not look right. I'd beat him up is what I was trying to say.

Ooohhh, suuuurrrre.

What's Freud say about there being no accidents?:blush:

JK

BTW - As someone who's been part of an organization that has suffered a fatal accident let's not get carried away with Monday AM quarterbacking - it's unproductive and disrespectful for the deceased and their survivors - trust me. Remember, there are MANY links in the chain. :erm:

 

[RedBehren]

Im shocked that nobody has chimmed in on the operator himself... Or maybe it's just the 135 board that bags on people post-accident. Anyway, suffice to say that the specific operator and it's operating practicies will likely be listed as major contributing factors in this extremely unfortunate accident.

But I guess thats an obvious point at this juncture...

 

[sleepy]

I fly in and out of here all of the time. It really isn't that challenging of an airport. If you are coming in from the east coast, and you understand that that SoCal is going to slam-dunk you in over the mountains, then what is the big deal? There really is not an excuse for running off of the runway unless your breaks failed.

 

[Capt1124]

Local news channel 8 reports the four on board were Jack Francis, pilot, (reported to have 35 years experience) Andy Garrett, copilot, passengers Frank Jellinek and a woman named Safran. The website has not been updated.

Here is an ad posted on skyjobs.net recently by a Frank Jellinek, it seems to be the same person:

Single Pilot (Aircraft Management) 1/9/2006
Family pilot-cirrus gts-light jet. Sun Valley Idaho and Rye Beach N.H. Must have 1500 tt with ATP and 500 hours turbine. $50k plus health care. Family travel only, approx 250 hours per year cirrus gts, Piper Meridian/Citation 550 type rating a plus. Good job in nice part of America.
Employer: Jellinek Family Trust
Contact: Frank Jellinek, Email:

The name Jack Francis sounds familiar, possibly from SNA, but I'm not sure. Prayers and sympathy for the families of those involved.

 

[CelticCitation]

Jack Francis was a very respected pilot. Let's not soil his memory by judging the decision to go into an airport well within the capabilities of the aircraft.

Looked at the log on flightaware. Last two groundspeed readouts were 209 and 227. That is easily 100kts over ref. I don't know the accuracy of those readouts that close to landing, but even if they were off 50%, they were way hot. I cannot imagine why these highly experienced guys would have tried to put it on in this situation. Perhaps something else was going on we don't know about? Maybe the CVR will shed some light.

Nevertheless, all of us in Idaho are deeply saddened by this tragic event. Condolences to the families of those involved.

CC

 

[patq1]

If you know anyone that knows how to use those charts 3 days after they leave recurrent, please have them come forward. The Brittish make a fine aircraft, but those charts are for the birds. If I could find the guy that designed those charts, I'd cold cock his a$$.

I'll step forward. A lot of people complain about those charts but they are not difficult to use or understand if explained properly. It's just making adjustments for slope and wind.

I also don't see the concern about a 4600 ft runway for takeoff. It all depends on weight, temperature and field elevation. In the 800, for instance, what's the difference between a 4600 ft runway(sea level) at 30 C and 22000 lbs (4600 ft required) and 6800 ft runway, 30 C, 27400 lbs(6840 ft required)? You are still going to use all of the runway. A longer runway isn't necessarily safer.

Go to East Hampton(4255 ft) and watch jets from citations to Gulfstreams(and yes, even Hawkers) come and go routinely. The deer are more worrisome than the runway length. I am pretty conservative, also. Would I land at East Hampton if it was dark, or the runway wet? No.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

pat

 

[SCT]

CC,

That is a great post on the accident. I know everyone is curious about the situation, but let's not Monday morning QB until the facts start coming out. The end result was obvious but we know very little facts at this time.

Thoughts and prayers to the families and friends......

 

[some_dude]

One thing to consider about CRQ: according to my obsolete, home Jepps, the landing distance from the glideslope is only 3535. Still should be more than adequate for a CE-560, but it's not as much as you might think at first glance.

Also, slightly OT, I've always wondered why the usable length beyond the threshold for rwy 24 was listed as 4600? The displaced threshold is at the departure end of 6, and you can't help but roll out into that area as the taxiway is located down there. So, if you land at the end of 24, which is not displaced, how do you NOT have 4897?

 

[Capt1124]

A friend of mine said an FAA guy told him they crossed ESCON intersection at 12,000 and the final approach fix at 7,000, at some point calling the airport in sight. Supposedly they touched down halfway down the runway, and 3/4s down they decided to go around, adding power but it was too late.

This would square with the high ground speed readouts. I emphasize this is second hand information.