Jumpseat war has begun

[Tejas-Jet]

Hmmmm...If I was Doug Parker...what would I do about this Jumpseat fiasco?

Hmmmmm....after a few shots of "Jack", I'd restrict all US Airways pilots from using US Airways Jumpseats...for a 30 day period...

...but would keep all reciprical Jumpseat agreements in place.

...it would get the "children" play nice...and it would unify the Pilots....

What do ya think of that plan?

 

[PCL_128]

Hmmmm...If I was Doug Parker...what would I do about this Jumpseat fiasco?

Hmmmmm....after a few shots of "Jack", I'd restrict all US Airways pilots from using US Airways Jumpseats...for a 30 day period...

...but would keep all reciprical Jumpseat agreements in place.

...it would get the "children" play nice...and it would unify the Pilots....

What do ya think of that plan?

Maybe that's possible out in SWAPA land, but ALPA isn't dumb enough to negotiate agreements that would allow that. Section 26 of the AAA agreement prohibits management from changing the jumpseat access policy. The agreement guarantees access to the jumpseat (with approval from the Captain, of course).

 

[FutureHeavyAC]

Hmmmm...If I was Doug Parker...what would I do about this Jumpseat fiasco?

Hmmmmm....after a few shots of "Jack", I'd restrict all US Airways pilots from using US Airways Jumpseats...for a 30 day period...

...but would keep all reciprical Jumpseat agreements in place.

...it would get the "children" play nice...and it would unify the Pilots....

What do ya think of that plan?

Are you drinking Jack? (I am..of course Im off and at the beach). The jumpseat will never be the CEO's call. That seat belongs to the PIC and SIC of that AC and they decide who sits there. If you are a CFI and you get past the TSA and the gate agents and get to me to ask for it....you can sit in my jumpseat

 

[Tomct]

Looks like one of the East USAIR pilots was just denied the J/S on a WEST Aircraft from SFO to CLT. (Which is an original EAST route). Looks like he got denied because he was wearing a USAPA lanyard. Next time I do SEA LAS or LAS SAN or PHX SFO or PHX SLC etc. I will not let a WEST Pilot on the J/S until this is resolved. And what I am hearing , this will be done by many AAA captains.

Let the games begin.

Marty

Typical winney Eastie! It has been said on this board many a times....they should have just let US go into Chptr 7 and picked at the pieces of the dead carcass instead of swooping in and saving your b!tching, whinning Azzes! Just Quit already!! As a Union member, I am ASHAMED to even think you "used to" belong to the same union I do. You sir, are a P.O.S.
And hey, congradulations on showing what TRUE MENTAL GIANTS you and your " ill fitted co-horts" really are.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

First of all, I've stated here many times that I completely oppose any politics entering into the jumpseat. It shouldn't matter in the least what any pilot's views on anything are. If s/he is on the approved jumpseat list s/he should be allowed to ride.

Having said that, the captain is essentially inviting the jumpseater into his/her home and thus a certain decorum is exptected. For instance, one wouldn't step into the cockpit and insult the captain and still expect to be able to ride. For this reason I don't have anything on my flight case political or controversial and I would never bring up a delicate topic. IF I'M JUMPSEATING I AVOID CAUSING TROUBLE!!!!.

Everybody knows darn well the raison d'etre of USAPA is to screw the AWA pilots and that a USAPA lanyard is offensive to us. Wearing the lanyard is a direct insult. Now, why in the heck would you expect us to let you on the jumpseat when you insult us?

The solution to this problem is simple: YOU need to take the politics out of the situation. If an Eastie wishes to jump on an AWA plane take off the lanyard.

thanksl for saving 5 mins! good post!

 

[JoeMerchant]

thanksl for saving 5 mins! good post!

.....so should an ALPA cheerleader take off his ALPA lanyard before he asks for a ride from a USAPA supporter?....Where does it end with the "don't offend me if you want to ride"....???

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

.....so should an ALPA cheerleader take off his ALPA lanyard before he asks for a ride from a USAPA supporter?....Where does it end with the "don't offend me if you want to ride"....???

Fair is Fair... Take off your ALPA Lanyard. I think that would be appropriate. If you're a commuter the first rule of the JS is "I will not offend."

 

[JoeMerchant]

Fair is Fair... Take off your ALPA Lanyard. I think that would be appropriate. If you're a commuter the first rule of the JS is "I will not offend."

I agree...however I think it is stupid to make anyone take off their lanyard to get a ride.....ALPA lanyards, Obama lanyards, or Rez. for ALPA President lanyards....silly lanyards, but I'm not going to make you take them off....That is an opportunity to lose an ID.....and while I don't agree with your politics, I don't want you to lose your ID.

Most of the ALPAista chest thumpers think this is a one way street....."Don't offend me.....it is my job to offend you".......

 

[Bringupthebird]

.....so should an ALPA cheerleader take off his ALPA lanyard before he asks for a ride from a USAPA supporter?....Where does it end with the "don't offend me if you want to ride"....???

How about "don't offend me if you want a ride". No one has a right to a jumpseat. It's a courtesy. If you choose to live or vacation somewhere that requires a jumpseat, then you give up the right to flaunt your views without restriction. You can buy a 310 and fly yourself to work with as much yellow crap as you can fit in the door. But if you're depending on someone else, you'd better be able to live by their rules or wait for the next seat outta Dodge.

So many people fail to see this for the war that it is. There is no neutral ground. One side is prepared to use it's numbers to force it's warped view of fairness on a much smaller group and in the process jeopardize everyone's future. There was a legitimate legal process that both sides agreed to and that process played out to the end. Then, the so-called losing side flipped over the checker board and pulled out a pistol (in the form of an ill-timed representation vote) deciding that it would make the rules now.

So don't sound so shocked that somebody is forced to call scheduling unable to make their report. This war was unilaterally declared and it is naieve to think that no one will be affected by it.

 

[fam62c]

I'm glad I don't work for USAirways. This kind of division within a company will poison the whole operation.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I agree...however I think it is stupid to make anyone take off their lanyard to get a ride.....ALPA lanyards, Obama lanyards, or Rez. for ALPA President lanyards....silly lanyards, but I'm not going to make you take them off....That is an opportunity to lose an ID.....and while I don't agree with your politics, I don't want you to lose your ID.

Most of the ALPAista chest thumpers think this is a one way street....."Don't offend me.....it is my job to offend you".......

You are missing the point butter fingers... go pop another bag of popcorn....


the USAIR guys had no problem with ALPA until the Nic award that they agreed to... that they were told was not going to be in thier favor, was awarded...

Now, like a spoiled brat, they are calling BS....

There is nothing "wrong" with ALPA. So why should ALPA offend? All of ALPA didn't cause Eastie pain. Eastie caused Easetie pain.

USAPA? It is simply a way for spoiled brats to ruin it for everyone. The stubbed toe theory... if someone stubbs thier toe they won't be happy until everyone in the room stubs thier toe too....

Why should we stub our toes just so the USAPA guys can be misreably happy?

That is why the USAPA lanyard offends.

 

[Deadalus]

Looks like one of the East USAIR pilots was just denied the J/S on a WEST Aircraft from SFO to CLT. (Which is an original EAST route). Looks like he got denied because he was wearing a USAPA lanyard. Next time I do SEA LAS or LAS SAN or PHX SFO or PHX SLC etc. I will not let a WEST Pilot on the J/S until this is resolved. And what I am hearing , this will be done by many AAA captains.

Let the games begin.

Marty

That's brilliant. This was the actions of one individual. Just last week we had an East jump seater on the flight deck who lives in SEA. Would you like us to screw him because of what one person did. We were courteous and professional and he rode on the jump seat. USAPA vs ALPA should stay in the trenches and out of the flight deck.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Republik still get to J/S, even though they have taken away 1/3 of our jobs. Those pilots in my view are direct replacement pilots for all the furloughs AAA has endured.
Marty

I'm denying you the jumpseat for being an idiot.:beer:

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I'm glad I don't work for USAirways. This kind of division within a company will poison the whole operation.

No kidding....buttering up the popcorn...got a good seat to watch the USAPA vs ALPA show.

Hillary vs Obama ain't got nothing on this one....

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Maybe that's possible out in SWAPA land

Really??? I can't recall something like that ever happening here.

Remember...it was just a suggestion so that the children could maybe play nice with each other....

 

[737 Pylt]

Fair is Fair... Take off your ALPA Lanyard. I think that would be appropriate. If you're a commuter the first rule of the JS is "I will not offend."

Grog:
I agree!
I don't commute, and we don't get many international js'ers in NYC, but the ones that do, go way out of their way to "not offend," and are really pleasant, asking permission, which in turn, usually gets them a seat in biz class!

737

 

[Falconjet]

Nothing wrong with ALPA?

Thanks for the belly laugh Rez.

FJ

 

[PCL_128]

.....so should an ALPA cheerleader take off his ALPA lanyard before he asks for a ride from a USAPA supporter?....Where does it end with the "don't offend me if you want to ride"....???

No, but he shouldn't cry like a little girl if he gets denied the jumpseat. The jumpseat belongs to the Captain. He can use whatever criteria he wants to determine whether someone gets a free ride.

 

[pipe]

No, but he shouldn't cry like a little girl if he gets denied the jumpseat. The jumpseat belongs to the Captain. He can use whatever criteria he wants to determine whether someone gets a free ride.

No, not really. Go ahead and decide by race, religion, sex, hair color, etc. and see how that works out for you in the long run.

The JS should not be denied on ideology. Denial should be based only on safety, lack of decorum, or lack of a jumpseat agreement.

The JS is Captain's authority, but it is OURS, COLLECTIVELY, AS A GROUP. We should use it, police it, and maintain it very judiciously.

Your union brothers didn't bargain for the jumpseat so it could be your personal little fiefdom. We just entrusted you with managing it on our behalf. Don't screw it up.


PIPE

 

[PCL_128]

The JS should not be denied on ideology. Denial should be based only on safety, lack of decorum, or lack of a jumpseat agreement.

Slippery slope. You start telling Captains when they can and can't deny the jumpseat, then it only goes down hill from there. Captain's authority has been eroded too much already. If he wants to deny you the jumpseat because he doesn't like your frickin' haircut, then I say more power to him.

 

[pipe]

PCL you obviously lean toward the use of the JS as a political tool. I lean toward its use as a transportation tool.

I support my MEC as they bargain to have and maintain control of the JS. I do this for my use AND YOURS. My MEC does this on my behalf and with my blessing. They spend some of my political capital in doing this. This is not some Captain that bought "his" jumpseat to do with as he wishes. This is US, OURS, YOURS, MINE.

The Capt needs to maintain authority. If you don't want a fed on there - kick him off. If you don't want mgt on there - kick 'em off. If you want that dispatcher gone - kick 'em off. That's family dealing with outsiders. Now, within the family, that's another story. You should be a bit more tolerant.

If you're gonna kick off a guy who has paid for that seat in negotiations, you better have a good reason. He paid to get you JS privileges on his airline. He did that without regard for your ideology at the time. Don't screw up a gentlemen's agreement by injecting your ideology where it doesn't belong.

All that aside - if a guy is a jerk, kick 'em off.

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All that aside - if a guy is a jerk, kick 'em off.

PIPE

you lose all creditbility with this statement...

would you like the ability to second guess whether or the 'jerk' measurment is valid?

 

[pipe]

you lose all creditbility with this statement...

would you like the ability to second guess whether or the 'jerk' measurment is valid?

I guess I gotta define jerk.

By that I don't mean disagreeing on politics, contracts, mergers, religion. When I say jerk, I mean failure to follow the proper protocol and decorum.

In my book a jerk is:

The guy that doesn't stop by the cockpit when he has a seat assignment

The guy that introduces himself to the Captain but doesn't bother to acknowledge the FO's existence

The guy that doesn't say thanks

The guy that doesn't introduce himself to the FA's. (this is a safety/CRM thing as well)

This is the kind of area where the Capt should make a judgment call. As you see, none of it involves politics, ideology, etc. If we can't be courteous to one another, how can we expect it from the other groups?

By the way Rez, as you were bagging on my credibility, did you agree with the other 95% of the post?

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What you define as a jerk is different than PCL.

PCL is an involved volunteer. He spends his time volunteering to protect the profession. So if a USAPA guy showed, disrespecting what he values, he'd take offense...

Just as if someone showed up to js on your jet and disrespected your whatever you value.. in your case it is actually "showing respect to the capt.' You want/need the js-er to say thanks, etc... Many pilots would think you are being too self serving... Pipe, you need the js-er to show you respect... some might say "get over yourself..."

So the point is... respect PCL's values as you want your values to be repsected and recognized...

 

[pipe]

What you define as a jerk is different than PCL.

PCL is an involved volunteer. He spends his time volunteering to protect the profession. So if a USAPA guy showed, disrespecting what he values, he'd take offense...

Just as if someone showed up to js on your jet and disrespected your whatever you value.. in your case it is actually "showing respect to the capt.' You want/need the js-er to say thanks, etc... Many pilots would think you are being too self serving... Pipe, you need the js-er to show you respect... some might say "get over yourself..."

So the point is... respect PCL's values as you want your values to be repsected and recognized...

When I guy with reciprocal JS rights shows up, I really don't care about my ego.

I wasn't defining what you or PCL or anyone else wants. I was giving examples of apolitical behaviors that would be legitimate for a captain to "enforce" on "his/her" jumpseat. I wouldn't ever deny a JS on any of the things I mentioned. I might comment to the guy that it would be nice if he'd do those things. 100% my opinion though.

I personally don't care too much about any of this myself, but if PCL shows up in civilian clothes and wearing an Obama '08 pin, he shouldn't be thrown off for it if the Capt is a McCain guy.

The point is, PCL bargained for reciprocal js rights and he should get those rights regardless of any political disagreement with the Captain.

PIPE

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

When I guy with reciprocal JS rights shows up, I really don't care about my ego.

I wasn't defining what you or PCL or anyone else wants. I was giving examples of apolitical behaviors that would be legitimate for a captain to "enforce" on "his/her" jumpseat. I wouldn't ever deny a JS on any of the things I mentioned. I might comment to the guy that it would be nice if he'd do those things. 100% my opinion though.

I personally don't care too much about any of this myself, but if PCL shows up in civilian clothes and wearing an Obama '08 pin, he shouldn't be thrown off for it if the Capt is a McCain guy.

The point is, PCL bargained for reciprocal js rights and he should get those rights regardless of any political disagreement with the Captain.

PIPE

PIPE

You listed rude behavior as a problem.... and then you say... but not really?


Again... I am not saying that you should agree with PCL's logic... but rather understadn his values and you want your values to be understood.

Keep in mind.. the USAPA effort is determinental to the profession. A direct assault...... it is not simple different of political idealogy such as McCain/Obama, (although Mccain will screw pilots allot harder than Obama)...

and finally.... what about PIC Authority? Is it final?

 

[ackattacker]

I have no side in the ALPA vs. USAPA fight.

It is flat out wrong to deny someone the jumpseat for wearing a union lanyard.

Yes the Captain has that authority. But there are repercussions. With authority comes responsibility. You have the authority to kick *anybody* of the aircraft. But do it willy-nilly and see how long you keep your job.

If you want to keep the J/S privilige out of management hands then you need to respect the people who fought and sacrificed to give you that authority and not use the jumpseat to "enforce" your opinions or politics.

Beyond simple protocol, it is flat out immoral. Unethical. It serves no purpose but to hurt another. Do you think it will change that persons opinion or vote? I have zero respect for such a Captain.

 

[waveflyer]

Politics are one thing and a bad reason to deny the J/S- noone could disagree w/ that... But doesn't anyone remember the british crash where politics was a factor? We also cheered when the Hawaiian pilot kicked his CEO off- for real safety reasons.

As much as I don't agree that politics should enter the flight deck-- Isn't it the captain's responsibility to make sure the flight's safe? Having an overly political pilot w/ views averse to you and your FO's- sitting 6 inches from you IN THE FLIGHT DECK and possibly running his/her mouth-- is a valid safety concern, is it not?

It might not be just- "I showed that guy- F- him!"

How about when everything is crazy like it is- the AWA guys leave their ALPA lanyards and the USAPA guys leave theirs IN THEIR BAGS and both sides make a conscious effort to talk about basketball and hockey and where to go on fill-in the blank layover during the flight.

 

[pipe]

You listed rude behavior as a problem.... and then you say... but not really?


Again... I am not saying that you should agree with PCL's logic... but rather understadn his values and you want your values to be understood.

Keep in mind.. the USAPA effort is determinental to the profession. A direct assault...... it is not simple different of political idealogy such as McCain/Obama, (although Mccain will screw pilots allot harder than Obama)...

and finally.... what about PIC Authority? Is it final?

1. Yes rude behavior is a bad thing. I wouldn't throw a guy off for it (unless it was to the pax). That's just my opinion. Everyone has their own opinion - but the issue is apolitical.

2. USAPA is a union (albeit one that doesn't represent anyone yet). ALPA carriers have JS agreements with APA, SWAPA, FAPA, Teamsters, etc., etc. In the end, if you're organized labor, you're organized labor.

3. I do understand PCL's values. In fact, I agree with him much of the time. I do not, however, remember where PIC authority gives captains a dispensation to make their "safety" related calls on the basis of their personal values. After all, the whole premise of the JS is safety - is it not??

4. Of course PIC authority is final. So is my authority as a father of young children. Doesn't give me the right to be a child abuser now, does it?

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

4. Of course PIC authority is final. So is my authority as a father of young children. Doesn't give me the right to be a child abuser now, does it?

PIPE

Easy with the analogies....

Where you child has a human right not to be abused... your fellow pilot does not have the right to jumpseat. Jumpseating is a priviledge.. no one is obligated to give it..... and sometimes it is a CBA right... but nonetheless that right does not supercede Capts Authority.

Socially is a looked down upon to deny someone... of course... but legally... there is nothing no can do about it..... of course socially... they can shun the guy... and it happens...