Jumpseat war has begun

[737 Pylt]

Fair is Fair... Take off your ALPA Lanyard. I think that would be appropriate. If you're a commuter the first rule of the JS is "I will not offend."

Grog:
I agree!
I don't commute, and we don't get many international js'ers in NYC, but the ones that do, go way out of their way to "not offend," and are really pleasant, asking permission, which in turn, usually gets them a seat in biz class!

737

 

[Falconjet]

Nothing wrong with ALPA?

Thanks for the belly laugh Rez.

FJ

 

[PCL_128]

.....so should an ALPA cheerleader take off his ALPA lanyard before he asks for a ride from a USAPA supporter?....Where does it end with the "don't offend me if you want to ride"....???

No, but he shouldn't cry like a little girl if he gets denied the jumpseat. The jumpseat belongs to the Captain. He can use whatever criteria he wants to determine whether someone gets a free ride.

 

[pipe]

No, but he shouldn't cry like a little girl if he gets denied the jumpseat. The jumpseat belongs to the Captain. He can use whatever criteria he wants to determine whether someone gets a free ride.

No, not really. Go ahead and decide by race, religion, sex, hair color, etc. and see how that works out for you in the long run.

The JS should not be denied on ideology. Denial should be based only on safety, lack of decorum, or lack of a jumpseat agreement.

The JS is Captain's authority, but it is OURS, COLLECTIVELY, AS A GROUP. We should use it, police it, and maintain it very judiciously.

Your union brothers didn't bargain for the jumpseat so it could be your personal little fiefdom. We just entrusted you with managing it on our behalf. Don't screw it up.


PIPE

 

[PCL_128]

The JS should not be denied on ideology. Denial should be based only on safety, lack of decorum, or lack of a jumpseat agreement.

Slippery slope. You start telling Captains when they can and can't deny the jumpseat, then it only goes down hill from there. Captain's authority has been eroded too much already. If he wants to deny you the jumpseat because he doesn't like your frickin' haircut, then I say more power to him.

 

[pipe]

PCL you obviously lean toward the use of the JS as a political tool. I lean toward its use as a transportation tool.

I support my MEC as they bargain to have and maintain control of the JS. I do this for my use AND YOURS. My MEC does this on my behalf and with my blessing. They spend some of my political capital in doing this. This is not some Captain that bought "his" jumpseat to do with as he wishes. This is US, OURS, YOURS, MINE.

The Capt needs to maintain authority. If you don't want a fed on there - kick him off. If you don't want mgt on there - kick 'em off. If you want that dispatcher gone - kick 'em off. That's family dealing with outsiders. Now, within the family, that's another story. You should be a bit more tolerant.

If you're gonna kick off a guy who has paid for that seat in negotiations, you better have a good reason. He paid to get you JS privileges on his airline. He did that without regard for your ideology at the time. Don't screw up a gentlemen's agreement by injecting your ideology where it doesn't belong.

All that aside - if a guy is a jerk, kick 'em off.

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All that aside - if a guy is a jerk, kick 'em off.

PIPE

you lose all creditbility with this statement...

would you like the ability to second guess whether or the 'jerk' measurment is valid?

 

[pipe]

you lose all creditbility with this statement...

would you like the ability to second guess whether or the 'jerk' measurment is valid?

I guess I gotta define jerk.

By that I don't mean disagreeing on politics, contracts, mergers, religion. When I say jerk, I mean failure to follow the proper protocol and decorum.

In my book a jerk is:

The guy that doesn't stop by the cockpit when he has a seat assignment

The guy that introduces himself to the Captain but doesn't bother to acknowledge the FO's existence

The guy that doesn't say thanks

The guy that doesn't introduce himself to the FA's. (this is a safety/CRM thing as well)

This is the kind of area where the Capt should make a judgment call. As you see, none of it involves politics, ideology, etc. If we can't be courteous to one another, how can we expect it from the other groups?

By the way Rez, as you were bagging on my credibility, did you agree with the other 95% of the post?

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What you define as a jerk is different than PCL.

PCL is an involved volunteer. He spends his time volunteering to protect the profession. So if a USAPA guy showed, disrespecting what he values, he'd take offense...

Just as if someone showed up to js on your jet and disrespected your whatever you value.. in your case it is actually "showing respect to the capt.' You want/need the js-er to say thanks, etc... Many pilots would think you are being too self serving... Pipe, you need the js-er to show you respect... some might say "get over yourself..."

So the point is... respect PCL's values as you want your values to be repsected and recognized...

 

[pipe]

What you define as a jerk is different than PCL.

PCL is an involved volunteer. He spends his time volunteering to protect the profession. So if a USAPA guy showed, disrespecting what he values, he'd take offense...

Just as if someone showed up to js on your jet and disrespected your whatever you value.. in your case it is actually "showing respect to the capt.' You want/need the js-er to say thanks, etc... Many pilots would think you are being too self serving... Pipe, you need the js-er to show you respect... some might say "get over yourself..."

So the point is... respect PCL's values as you want your values to be repsected and recognized...

When I guy with reciprocal JS rights shows up, I really don't care about my ego.

I wasn't defining what you or PCL or anyone else wants. I was giving examples of apolitical behaviors that would be legitimate for a captain to "enforce" on "his/her" jumpseat. I wouldn't ever deny a JS on any of the things I mentioned. I might comment to the guy that it would be nice if he'd do those things. 100% my opinion though.

I personally don't care too much about any of this myself, but if PCL shows up in civilian clothes and wearing an Obama '08 pin, he shouldn't be thrown off for it if the Capt is a McCain guy.

The point is, PCL bargained for reciprocal js rights and he should get those rights regardless of any political disagreement with the Captain.

PIPE

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

When I guy with reciprocal JS rights shows up, I really don't care about my ego.

I wasn't defining what you or PCL or anyone else wants. I was giving examples of apolitical behaviors that would be legitimate for a captain to "enforce" on "his/her" jumpseat. I wouldn't ever deny a JS on any of the things I mentioned. I might comment to the guy that it would be nice if he'd do those things. 100% my opinion though.

I personally don't care too much about any of this myself, but if PCL shows up in civilian clothes and wearing an Obama '08 pin, he shouldn't be thrown off for it if the Capt is a McCain guy.

The point is, PCL bargained for reciprocal js rights and he should get those rights regardless of any political disagreement with the Captain.

PIPE

PIPE

You listed rude behavior as a problem.... and then you say... but not really?


Again... I am not saying that you should agree with PCL's logic... but rather understadn his values and you want your values to be understood.

Keep in mind.. the USAPA effort is determinental to the profession. A direct assault...... it is not simple different of political idealogy such as McCain/Obama, (although Mccain will screw pilots allot harder than Obama)...

and finally.... what about PIC Authority? Is it final?

 

[ackattacker]

I have no side in the ALPA vs. USAPA fight.

It is flat out wrong to deny someone the jumpseat for wearing a union lanyard.

Yes the Captain has that authority. But there are repercussions. With authority comes responsibility. You have the authority to kick *anybody* of the aircraft. But do it willy-nilly and see how long you keep your job.

If you want to keep the J/S privilige out of management hands then you need to respect the people who fought and sacrificed to give you that authority and not use the jumpseat to "enforce" your opinions or politics.

Beyond simple protocol, it is flat out immoral. Unethical. It serves no purpose but to hurt another. Do you think it will change that persons opinion or vote? I have zero respect for such a Captain.

 

[waveflyer]

Politics are one thing and a bad reason to deny the J/S- noone could disagree w/ that... But doesn't anyone remember the british crash where politics was a factor? We also cheered when the Hawaiian pilot kicked his CEO off- for real safety reasons.

As much as I don't agree that politics should enter the flight deck-- Isn't it the captain's responsibility to make sure the flight's safe? Having an overly political pilot w/ views averse to you and your FO's- sitting 6 inches from you IN THE FLIGHT DECK and possibly running his/her mouth-- is a valid safety concern, is it not?

It might not be just- "I showed that guy- F- him!"

How about when everything is crazy like it is- the AWA guys leave their ALPA lanyards and the USAPA guys leave theirs IN THEIR BAGS and both sides make a conscious effort to talk about basketball and hockey and where to go on fill-in the blank layover during the flight.

 

[pipe]

You listed rude behavior as a problem.... and then you say... but not really?


Again... I am not saying that you should agree with PCL's logic... but rather understadn his values and you want your values to be understood.

Keep in mind.. the USAPA effort is determinental to the profession. A direct assault...... it is not simple different of political idealogy such as McCain/Obama, (although Mccain will screw pilots allot harder than Obama)...

and finally.... what about PIC Authority? Is it final?

1. Yes rude behavior is a bad thing. I wouldn't throw a guy off for it (unless it was to the pax). That's just my opinion. Everyone has their own opinion - but the issue is apolitical.

2. USAPA is a union (albeit one that doesn't represent anyone yet). ALPA carriers have JS agreements with APA, SWAPA, FAPA, Teamsters, etc., etc. In the end, if you're organized labor, you're organized labor.

3. I do understand PCL's values. In fact, I agree with him much of the time. I do not, however, remember where PIC authority gives captains a dispensation to make their "safety" related calls on the basis of their personal values. After all, the whole premise of the JS is safety - is it not??

4. Of course PIC authority is final. So is my authority as a father of young children. Doesn't give me the right to be a child abuser now, does it?

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

4. Of course PIC authority is final. So is my authority as a father of young children. Doesn't give me the right to be a child abuser now, does it?

PIPE

Easy with the analogies....

Where you child has a human right not to be abused... your fellow pilot does not have the right to jumpseat. Jumpseating is a priviledge.. no one is obligated to give it..... and sometimes it is a CBA right... but nonetheless that right does not supercede Capts Authority.

Socially is a looked down upon to deny someone... of course... but legally... there is nothing no can do about it..... of course socially... they can shun the guy... and it happens...