jetsforjobs?

[Brother Francis]

I have heard (not confirmed) that there are some U furloughs in training at CHQ.

I find it significant that the only pilot groups who have "agreed" to "participate" in j4j were given death as the alternative.

 

[jon210]

It seems the best solution for everyone then would be to have a flowthrough program that flows both ways, especially with carriers that own their regional carriers. I was once told by an American pilot that the hardest way to get a mainline job was to work for one of its regionals. Don't know how true this is, but if there is any truth to it, it is absurd.

 

[Sleepyhead]

"It seems the best solution for everyone then would be to have
a flowthrough program that flows both ways"

Yes, that would be a good thing.
But the reason the majors are against it is because they don't have any control of the hiring process of the regionals.
They only way to make it work would be to have one hiring dept.

 

[LR25]

I think USAir turned that down to PDT several years ago.

You right Bored, I was a little confused about the Potomac thing, now I remember.

The USAir and WO'ed and contract carrier thing is getting complicated.

 

[Flying"C"ranchr]

J4J... looks like, smells like

the concept of j4j from managment's point of view looks good... more rjs doing the job in place of larger airframes. from a regional pilot group point of view, i feel it's not so good.

first, why should a furlough mainline pilot come to the regionals and get 1st year cpt pay as an fo? doesn't this devalue what the regional pilot has been striving for?

second, sure we may get more airframes, but the ratio of aircraft and furloughed mainline pilots will be skewed to benefit the furloughees and the existing and future regional newhires will get whats left. i.e. longer upgrade time for the the regional pilot.

third, duty rigs, shift rigs, etc. these are going to be an issue for the mainline pilot on furlough. who knows they may bitch enough to enhance the regional pilot's quality of life...we will see. i foresee a great deal of unhappy mainline piots living the minor league life style... it's just going to be a bad working environment.

fourth... can you say 401K? do these mainline guys continue to have the option to contribute to mainline retirement, or are they limited to what the regional pilot can invest their money in? if they get to contribute to their existing mainline retirement, does the regional pilot get an opportunity to contibute to these programs???

my point of view,
ranchr

p.s. wow, i'm getting 2nd f.o. pay at mesa... $27/hr, and an j4j f.o. get 1st year cpt pay at $50/hr... isn't life grand?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Save A Wholly-Owned -- Vote NO!

Flying "C" Rancher",

You said, "wow, i'm getting 2nd f.o. pay at mesa... $27/hr, and an j4j f.o. get 1st year cpt pay at $50/hr... isn't life grand?

Then vote "No."

I can not think of one single reason why Mesa would choose to participate in Jets4Jobs.

The wholly-owned carriers had a reason -- had they voted "no" they would be liquidated. Some wholly-owned pilots were interested in the potential of the unrestricted flowthrough -- but Mesa, as a contract carrier, is not eligible to participate in a flowthrough.

Save a wholly-owned. Vote "No".

I cant help but to keep asking myself... WHY would Mesa participate? How do they benefit? By generating 50 upgrades for their own pilot group? Hardly seems worthwhile.

As far as your comment on pay -- I dont know what to tell you, my friend. I honestly and sincerely hope that when you get that phone call and you are selected to fly for a major airline, that it is permanent -- that you can expect to be there for the duration of your career.

If, however, you are furloughed and you choose to return to the regionals, I hope that you remember what it was like to be a regional airline F/O and make the best of it -- regardless of what the payscale is at that time.

It's tougher than it sounds sometimes!

 

[Flying"C"ranchr]

Measa's MEC

Mesa's MEC supports J4J.

I'm voting against it.

Ranchr

 

[surplus1]

Re: Scope is the Guardian - Jobs are the Key

Ok Surplus (sigh) fire away.

Nope my friend, won't do it.

I'll glady debate this issue with you, in private or in some other thread but not in this one. Why with you but not here? Because, IMHO, you are the only one writing in this thread so far that has any real understanding of this subject.

I'm sorry if that offends others and I don't mean to be offensive. The truth is that the Jets for Jobs issue is very complex. Based on the content of the posts, both here and in other threads, it appears that most of the writers have not even read the related documents.

IMO, a meaningful discussion of such a complex subject, requires a knowledge of the history that precedes it, the structure of the airlines involved, the contracts of each, the labor union that represents them, the record of the politics (both open and behind the scenes), the history of Scope and a working knowledge of the J4J protocols.

This complex issue cannot be understood, let alone debated, (again in my opinion) without most of that background if not all of it. Unfortunately, a majority of line pilots on both sides of the fence, do not have that background and are, in general, illinformed or misinformed or both. So we wind up not with a discussion but with a quarrel. That doesn't accomplish much.

Another problem is that there are many preconceived assumptions and beliefs that are firmly ingrained but that cannot stand the test of close examination. In other words, myths. It's like religion, where even theologians cannot separate fact from fiction, but most folks are quite willing to fall on their swords in defense of their beliefs, right or wrong, myth, half-truth or fact.

IMO, union leaders are responsible for not fully informing their constituents so that the latter can make intelligent decisions. The result is that most of us are operating in a vacuum or faced with the blind leading the blind.

I am opposed to Jets for Jobs but I can only debate it with those that have taken the time to become fully informed. FurloughedAgain is one of those people. There are others, but so far I haven't seen them in this thread.

I apologize up front to anyone that I've PO'd by saying all that. Just take it with a grain of salt. It is only my opinion, so don't let it bother you any. I'm just as "full of it" as the next guy.

Happy days and best wishes to all. Keep in mind "ignorance is bliss".

 

[BoredToDeath]

Actualy Surplus,

Many of us are very well informed as to how this deal is going to affect our future. Remember it's happening at our company not yours.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Furloughed Again,

OK I'll buy that. But if its not about greed than why the difference in pay. Would'nt you say that its a little unjust that a Mainline pilot can come to our property and get paid more than someone senior to him for doing the same job. Sould'nt infact our pay scales go up as well.

And why, if your MEC is worried about where your flying is going to, did they make this agreement so that any carrier (contract or WO) could sign on. Would'nt it have been better to work a deal with Dave to stop the contracting of US Airways Group flying( Group Flying meaning Mainline, PDT, ALG, and PSA) and merge the four companys and have one group of pilots (ONELIST) doing all the flying. Think of the cost savings in getting rid of four different companies and having them all managed under one. On top of that not having to pay another company to feed for U would enable all profits to stay in house.

RJs are not going to save this company. A good route structure will. And thats one thing we don't have. To many big planes doing short haul is just a regional airline on roids.


P.S. Just listened to your MEC update for Oct. 24. Its nice to know big Roy is in support of Mesa. Does he even know that there are 3 WOs who have already "accepted" this deal? What a JackA$$!!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Tough Questions. Flowthroughs & Dreamers.

Bored to Death:

Now we're down to the nitty-gritty. The tough questions. I'll try to answer them, but to be very honest I was just a regular line pilot and not one of the architects of Jets4jobs so all I can really give you is my opinion.

You said, "if its not about greed than why the difference in pay."

I agree with you 100%. I dont see why the "affected" pilots should come to your property and make more money than you do. The mainline MEC was supposedly setting a minimum level of compensation for all participants in Jets4jobs -- back at the beginning when they anticipated that all participants would be Captains! As you know, that has changed now. I think a "fair" solution would be to let the affected pilots bring their longevity over for pay/benefits. <shrug> But thats just me. (The greedy part of me wants to bring my longevity for bidding too!)

You asked, "And why, if your MEC is worried about where your flying is going to, did they make this agreement so that any carrier (contract or WO) could sign on. "

Because the MEC KNEW that this deal was a piece of cr@p!! They were quite aware that they were going to have a tough time getting regional airlines to sign on to Jets4Jobs and they had to find a way to absorb (at the time) 1100 affected pilots.

Remember, when this started Jets4Jobs was only designed to get rid of that noisy, pain-in-the-butt group of "newhires" who expected to have careers at US Airways.

The MEC wanted desperately to give management the ability to fly RJs -- to "save" the company. They just couldnt do it while management was furloughing all of these pilots. Jets4jobs was created so the MEC could say "Hey guys...what do you want from us?? We GOT you jobs!"

They never intended for pilots to be furloughed with up to 15 years seniority. Jets4Jobs was never designed to absorb 30% of the US Airways seniority list. What we are seeing today is a far cry from the original idea.

You said, "Would'nt it have been better to work a deal with Dave to stop the contracting of US Airways Group flying( Group Flying meaning Mainline, PDT, ALG, and PSA) and merge the four companys and have one group of pilots (ONELIST) doing all the flying."

I think that would be fantastic. In fact, a group of "newhires" at US Airways was working towards just that goal. Every time the MEC started talking about RJs this group of junior pilots campaigned for a bidirectional flowthrough. Unfortunately, they're all on the street right now and "Dave" isnt much in a deal-making mood. His "labor-friendly" restructuring is turning out to be anything BUT labor friendly.

You said, "RJs are not going to save this company."

AMEN!!! The following was sent to me from a friend at PSA. A pilot posted the following on their union message board:

"... everyday that goes by that we don't order jets is another day Dave risks putting the entire company out of business. Dave, if you are reading this, please just order the RJs so the WOs can go out and make lots of money for you. "

Really. RJs are the magic-fairies that will arrive and make everything better at US Airways.

Dreamer.

You're right. A good route structure will and thats one thing we don't have. Hopefully Dave is listening because what he REALLY needs to do is quit parking airplanes.

You can't shrink to profitability -- the airline needs to generate revenue. If you're not doing it where you're flying now then find someplace where you can. And THAT is where RJs come in.

They will allow Dave to reallocate the mainline resources where they need to be to make money and allow the RJs to develop markets and retain market-share.

You said, Just listened to your MEC update for Oct. 24. Its nice to know big Roy is in support of Mesa. Does he even know that there are 3 WOs who have already "accepted" this deal? What a JackA$$!!

If it makes you feel any better, Roy is getting furloughed in January... and I agree that he is a JackA$$.

For what its worth I'm furloughed from mainline. I'm currently working at a wholly-owned. & I'm not waiting around for J4J. I'm updating my resume and sending it to every company that will accept it -- I dont think the wholly-owneds will survive Dave's "labor-friendly" restructuring.

Fraternally,
FurloughedAgain

 

[surplus1]

Actualy Surplus,

Many of us are very well informed as to how this deal is going to affect our future. Remember it's happening at our company not yours.

Yes, some of you are but it is definitely not "many". Yes, it is happening at your Company. What all of us would do well to recognize is that what happens at your Company ultimately affects my Comapny and what happens at my Company ultimately affects yours.

Another thing it might help to recognize is that what happened or didn't happen is NOT just the work of UMEC, it is the work of the ALPA. Many of us seem to be afraid to say that. I'm not one of them.

I wish you the best.

 

[The Penguin]

"Really. RJs are the magic-fairies that will arrive and make everything better at US Airways.

Dreamer."

Dreamer? You can't just pack up your bags and change your route structure, thats good imagination. The only way USAirways will survive is to adapt to the environment it serves (East Coast). You can't fly F100's and 737's from TYS, TRI, or other similar sized citys when your load factors are 50% and expect to stay in business very long. Also, you can't keep forcing people to fly on turbo props when there are other alternitives. RJs are the future for USAirways, and everyday that goes by with out them is another day we are all closer to loosing our jobs, which mean no future for anyone at USAirways or Express.

 

[BoredToDeath]

**You can't just pack up your bags and change your route structure, thats good imagination.**

Real leadership would have been able to do just that. Instead we have the ones who are getting bonuses for running this place into the grouond. Some who are still waiting to merge with another failing airline.(UA) Now thats the real pipe dream. Or perhaps nightmare.

**The only way USAirways will survive is to adapt to the environment it serves (East Coast). You can't fly F100's and 737's from TYS, TRI, or other similar sized citys when your load factors are 50% and expect to stay in business very long. **

Just being able to serve the East Coast is not the airline image to strive for. We can't even protect that very well. ie: Comair has increased flights out of DCA. With 3 very experianced WO airlines, US Airways should have been able to very easily expand with the F100s and espescially the 73s instead of trying to shrink like TWA.

**RJs are the future for USAirways, and everyday that goes by with out them is another day we are all closer to loosing our jobs, which mean no future for anyone at USAirways or Express.**

I agree that we need them, especially the WO, but they are only a small part of the problem. The RJs should have been here long ago and the onlything the RJ is gonna do is catch us up to Delta and even their not doing so good.

Infact the only companies doing good in this enviornment don't use RJs do they? And those same companies don't have absurd price models. And my favorite, they don't contract out their work.

Now granted, those companies I mentioned also don't go to every bumf*&k city like we do, but I'm sure there's some Harvard grad out there that could figure out how to make it work for us. And I'm starting to realize that Dave ain't the one.

Surplus,

Your right. IMHO I would rather that the US Airways Group pilots be part of our own union to work with our own mgt. I've always wondered how ALPA can say they represent our needs when one of the main needs of the WO is not to have US Airways Group flying contracted out. And now in this dam Express News Lettter I get, their trying to make me think that I should feel some sort of brotherly love with Mesa because they are ALPA too. Scr%w that! Once they get off our property, I'll give em all the love they want.

How can one union represent all pilots from competting airlines. It dosen't make sense.

Furloughed Again,

Thanks for some more insight. Everything you've said I basically agree with. I can even give on the money if we get some too, but the bidding? Your out of luck.

Take Care,
BTD

Oh and BTW Penquin, don't take my reply as trying to bash you just giving my opinion. Like as if you wanted it.

 

[The Penguin]

BTD, How can it be bashing when we are just having a discussion?

"Infact the only companies doing good in this enviornment don't use RJs do they?"

Actually, Air Tran is begininng to use RJs. I think WN has peaked for the near term, or at least until they can adapt to the new security procedures. Afterall, it was WN's 20 min turn that made the company. I think they will find a way to adapt, but until then I think Air Tran and Jet Blue have the advantage. And I wouldn't be surprised to see JB eventually, maybe not tomorrow, but in a few years create (or contract) a feeder of some kind.

"I agree that we need them, especially the WO, but they (RJs) are only a small part of the problem."

No, they are a big part of the problem. USAirways is loosing passengers to Comair, CoEx, and Eagle because of RJs. People prefer them, plain and simple. Dave has reduced the cost structure of what once was the airline with the highest operating cost of any major airline. Next is to create the East coast feed needed to benefit not only US, but also United. Yeah, these two airlines have a long way to go before they are even close to being out of the woods and most likely things will get worse before they get better. Only time will tell. I just don't want to see another airline bite the dust, thats just too many jobs lost at the worst possible time.