jetsforjobs?

[jon210]

Can someone explain what this is and why it is so hated?

 

[Andy Neill]

Let's say mainline A goes to regional B and says, "We have a bunch of pilots on furlough. If you will employ them (with or without some strings attached related to which seat, seniority, pay structure), we will relax the existing scope restrictions placed on you by so many jets. For instance, if you take 400 pilots from us, we will let you fly 80 jets."

This would provide SOME employment for the mainline furloughed pilots.
This would allow some jets not previously allowed at the regional.
The details of the plan would be the objectionable part in that
- Pilots from mainline are being "forced" down the throat of the regional.
- The provisions may allow for mainline pilots new to the regional to get the left seat and bypass seniority within the regional.
- The provisions may allow for mainline pilots to get mainline pay for doing regional work.
- The provisions may allow for mainline pilots to get senior regional pay even though they are newhires at the regional.
- It may force junior regional pilots onto the street as the j4j mainline pilots walk through the door.
- It may diminish the anticipated pilot force growth of regional pilots if the jets were coming anyway and now they must be shared with furloughed mainline pilots.

I believe this pretty well summarizes the potential problems regional pilots would have with the j4j proposals.

 

[Sleepyhead]

I agree with your points however I think the regionals have brought this upon themselves. The unwritten policy of not interviewing furloughed pilots is one cause.
Just think, If the regionals would treat furloughees just like other applicants, (ie offer interviews based on qualifications) the majors would not be in the position to apply leverage of Jets for Jobs.

 

[Andy Neill]

An interesting position, hog.

Go with me on this. A regional says to furloughees everywhere, "Ya'll come. We accept furloughed pilots just like any other applicant." Some mainline folks apply and get jobs. Now re-enter mainline A (and the MEC from their union) who needs a bunch of small jets to be competitive (and the union would like the remainder of their furloughed pilots employed), wouldn't j4j still be there? If so, would you, as a mainline pilot rather be at the bottom of the seniority list getting regional pay with the regional who would hire you, or would you rather be in the left seat of the regional getting mainline pay or super seniority pay?

I believe the need for jobs is greater than the regionals could have absorbed hence the pressure for j4j (as a joint effort between mainline managment wanting scope relief and mainline MEC wanting jobs) would still be there. Could be wrong.

 

[Otto]

I agree with your points however I think the regionals have brought this upon themselves. The unwritten policy of not interviewing furloughed pilots is one cause.
Just think, If the regionals would treat furloughees just like other applicants, (ie offer interviews based on qualifications) the majors would not be in the position to apply leverage of Jets for Jobs.

I'm glad you're not in managment. Hmm...lets see, do I spend thousands of bucks to train someone who will be with me for years or do I spend thousands on someone who I know is going to jump ship as soon as his old job comes back, forcing me to train yet another guy? That highly qualified furloughed guy costs double in the long run yet he generates the same revenue as the other guy. Do the math...which would you choose?

 

[LR25]

If thats the case, explain Potomac AKA Freedumb Air.

Wouldnt the Mainline guys get preference there?

What about Midway?

I hate to see any pilot furloughed, we are all in this together, but if one airline does good, and one does bad, how do the ones at the bad airline get the jobs of the airline that is doing good, and then get paid more than the guy above you in the seniority.

All there is, is just questions, non good answers.

 

[Sleepyhead]

" I'm glad you're not in managment. Hmm...lets see, do I spend
thousands of bucks to train someone who will be with me for years or do I spend thousands on someone who I know is going to jump ship as soon as his old job comes back, forcing me to train yet another guy? That highly qualified furloughed guy costs double in the long run yet he generates the same revenue as the other guy. Do the math...which would you choose?"


Your arguement makes sense for a major airline but we are talking about the regional hiring here.
When the majors are hiring, the majority of regional pilots are leaving as fast as they can. So if you are regional mgt you can't say, gee if I hire this low time guy new guy he will be here for years. The opposite is what happens. Why do you think many companys had training contracts. When I was hired at a regional back in 98, the hiring was so good at the majors we had 3 guys leave the company one month out of training. and in the summer of 2000, so many were leaving to the majors the company couldn't fill new hire classes.
The fact is the furloughed pilot will not return to their jobs until things turn around inthe industry. And when that happens the other guys at the regionals will be getting interviews and leaving just as fast. I know some regional mgt people. If you ask them they will tell you if they get 2-3 years froma new hire that is really good.
Do you think any of the furloughed pilots will be going back withing 2-3 years.? With many still furloughing right now, I don't think so.

 

[Sleepyhead]

Andy,
I don't agree.

First of all, j4j only works at the companys that own their regional. A few months after 911 when Skywest was interviewing, a lot of furloughees were asking the MEC why they didn't put pressure on Skywest to interview UAL furloughees, since they are a large UAX carrier. The MEC said they had no leverage to do so since Skywest is not owned by UAL.
(not really true but, the MEC wasn't interested)
All mgt-pilot negotiations involve give and take. If you want more jets, than you have to give something to let mainline pilots give releif on scope. If you don't like j4j, then you can take that card away from them by interviewing and hiring furloughed pilots.
Then you can tell them "we don't need j4j because we are already hiring your guys. What else do you want to offer."

 

[CF34-3B1]

I know in the case of ASA, we're hiring a lot of furloughed guys (no seniority # resignation required)

It really does make sense for management, we get a very experienced pilot, and the reality is, they aren't going back to mainline any time soon, so why not?

And although I'm not a "company man" I did have the opportunity to discuss this issue with several of our management and chief pilot types recently. In addition to the above points, one thing that was said that struck me was "It's just the right thing to do to try and help these guys out."

 

[Freight Dog]

Let me be the devil's advocate here:


If USAirways survives and becomes a viable and profitable airline, don't all the new-hires have to start as DHC-8 FO's or CRJ FO's and work their way up the seniority list to the heavies?

Secondly, doesn't US Airways have furloughees with DOH back in 1989? What's the DOH of a displaced senior guy at a WO?

To me, this almost looks like a merger of seniority lists based on DOH. Isn't this what RJDC wants?

 

[Beechnut]

Hey Hog, you said:

First of all, j4j only works at the companys that own their regional.

Mesa is working on a deal with USAirways for J4J. Mesa is not owned by USAirways

S.

 

[Sleepyhead]

I stand corrected.
However it is not exactly the the same situation we were talking about. From what I hear the Mesa MEC is against this and fighting it. Another one of JOs trick to get more jets.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Wow.!!!

So many of you are way off. So I'll try and answer want I can then maybe Furloughed Again can answer the rest, and if he/she does'nt respond, go and look up what he/she has written. It should answer the original question.

hog wrote: **The unwritten policy of not interviewing furloughed pilots is one cause. **

After 9/11 PSA hired back all the furloughes from various Mainlines that used to work here back. As well as Every pilot from Emery that wanted to work here when Emery took a dump. Unfortunately not many of the Emery guys stayed. So as far as what I've seen there is no unwritten policy.

LR25 wrote: **If thats the case, explain Potomac AKA Freedumb Air. **

Potomac and Freedom have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Potomac was created for the merger that was supposed to happen between U and UA, and was a product of U. Freedom would have been a product of Mesa to get around U's scope clause. They were not the same thing.


Freight Dog wrote: **Secondly, doesn't US Airways have furloughees with DOH back in 1989? What's the DOH of a displaced senior guy at a WO?

To me, this almost looks like a merger of seniority lists based on DOH. Isn't this what RJDC wants?**

Actually, soon the last furloughee will have a DOH of alittle more than '89'. And from our last update negotiations on how to not necessarly merge the lists, but rather adjust the flowthrough to MDA and then Mainline are not going well. Remember many of the most senior WO guys have been there for 10 to 15 years longer than alot of the furloghees from Mainline that came from places like Mesa. And their not about to be junior to them.

Beechnut wrote: **Mesa is working on a deal with USAirways for J4J. Mesa is not owned by USAirways **

This is belived to be more propaganda to assist JO during contract negotiations with his pilots. The original 70 jets allowed by the U scope clause are not being operated. There is only somewhere around 50 being operated by Mesa, TSA, and CHQ combined. This is info being told to me by my reps who have lied in the past so I may be wrong. But if it is true that would mean that the 20 more coming to Mesa are just enough to bring the # of SJ operated in U colors up to the 70 allowed by U's current scope clause without falling under the Jets4Jobs provisions.

The Mesa pilots have not indicated any desire to fall for the Extortion that the WO's have had no choice to take.

Now to the original question. What is Jets4Jobs and why is it hated?

Well I'll let someone else tell ya what it is since I really can't find the right words to explain it, but I can tell ya why its hated.

It says to me that a Mainline Pilot is more important than me. Its like Mainline saying we were'nt good enough to have a flow through way back when but now that there is no hope for returning to Mainline in the near future they want to force a flow down now. And get paid more to do the same job just because.

Its all about Greed!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Scope is the Guardian - Jobs are the Key

Hi Bored,

I'd like to add two points to what you said.

#1. You said, "The original 70 jets allowed by the U scope clause are not being operated. There is only somewhere around 50 being operated by Mesa, TSA, and CHQ combined. This is info being told to me by my reps who have lied in the past so I may be wrong"

I dont believe your reps are intentionally deceiving you. I could be mistaken again, but my sources on the mainline MEC indicate that all 70 RJs permitted under LOA79 are currently flying. I guess we'll see!

#2. You said, "Its all about greed..

No, my friend, its all about jobs. The US Airways PWA (pilots working agreement) essentially makes the statement that all US Airways flying must be done by pilots on the US Airways seniority list -- except for this, this, this and this...

The "excepts" are sections that they have permitted be flown by wholly-owned, contract, and codeshare carriers. Obviously turboprop flying has been permitted to be flown elsewhere. Obviously up to 70 RJs have been permitted to be flown elsewhere. (limited to 50 seats and 65000 lbs).

Then, while at the same time they were faced with the furlough of over 1000 of their pilots, they were asked to obliterate the scope -- allow over 400 jets to be flown in US Airways colors, but not by US AIrways pilots and feeding only 245-279 mainline airplanes.

I think their fear is pretty obvious. As many of you have mentioned the vast majority of US Airways flying could easily be done by these jets.

The MEC had a dillema. They knew that US Airways needed the RJs to remain competitive. But they also knew that had they outsourced that much flying with 1000+ pilots on furlough, they were looking at a pretty staggering class-action duty-of-fair-representation lawsuit. So what did they do?

They imposed a single seniority list with an unrestricted flowthrough, They obliterated scope with some provisions (J4J), and they restricted "large" RJs to MidAtlantic.

I think that the reasons you posted regarding why the wholly-owned pilots are angry are perfectly clear. They have every right to be angry, upset, etc. Three years ago had management created a single seniority list with unrestricted flowthrough we all would have been dancing in the streets -- and today we'd all be back at the regionals.

There's no good way to talk intelligently about this topic without making SOMEONE angry -- but I assure you this isnt about greed.
ALPA used to have flight-bag stickers which they passed around and read, "Scope is the Guardian - Jobs are the Key"

Ok Surplus (sigh) fire away.

 

[C3P0]

unwritten rule

In reply to a previous post. The unwritten rule of not interviewing or hiring forloughed pilots. They do at ASA, interview and hire, without having them give up their date of hire.

This is my only point.

 

[Brother Francis]

I have heard (not confirmed) that there are some U furloughs in training at CHQ.

I find it significant that the only pilot groups who have "agreed" to "participate" in j4j were given death as the alternative.

 

[jon210]

It seems the best solution for everyone then would be to have a flowthrough program that flows both ways, especially with carriers that own their regional carriers. I was once told by an American pilot that the hardest way to get a mainline job was to work for one of its regionals. Don't know how true this is, but if there is any truth to it, it is absurd.

 

[Sleepyhead]

"It seems the best solution for everyone then would be to have
a flowthrough program that flows both ways"

Yes, that would be a good thing.
But the reason the majors are against it is because they don't have any control of the hiring process of the regionals.
They only way to make it work would be to have one hiring dept.

 

[LR25]

I think USAir turned that down to PDT several years ago.

You right Bored, I was a little confused about the Potomac thing, now I remember.

The USAir and WO'ed and contract carrier thing is getting complicated.

 

[Flying"C"ranchr]

J4J... looks like, smells like

the concept of j4j from managment's point of view looks good... more rjs doing the job in place of larger airframes. from a regional pilot group point of view, i feel it's not so good.

first, why should a furlough mainline pilot come to the regionals and get 1st year cpt pay as an fo? doesn't this devalue what the regional pilot has been striving for?

second, sure we may get more airframes, but the ratio of aircraft and furloughed mainline pilots will be skewed to benefit the furloughees and the existing and future regional newhires will get whats left. i.e. longer upgrade time for the the regional pilot.

third, duty rigs, shift rigs, etc. these are going to be an issue for the mainline pilot on furlough. who knows they may bitch enough to enhance the regional pilot's quality of life...we will see. i foresee a great deal of unhappy mainline piots living the minor league life style... it's just going to be a bad working environment.

fourth... can you say 401K? do these mainline guys continue to have the option to contribute to mainline retirement, or are they limited to what the regional pilot can invest their money in? if they get to contribute to their existing mainline retirement, does the regional pilot get an opportunity to contibute to these programs???

my point of view,
ranchr

p.s. wow, i'm getting 2nd f.o. pay at mesa... $27/hr, and an j4j f.o. get 1st year cpt pay at $50/hr... isn't life grand?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Save A Wholly-Owned -- Vote NO!

Flying "C" Rancher",

You said, "wow, i'm getting 2nd f.o. pay at mesa... $27/hr, and an j4j f.o. get 1st year cpt pay at $50/hr... isn't life grand?

Then vote "No."

I can not think of one single reason why Mesa would choose to participate in Jets4Jobs.

The wholly-owned carriers had a reason -- had they voted "no" they would be liquidated. Some wholly-owned pilots were interested in the potential of the unrestricted flowthrough -- but Mesa, as a contract carrier, is not eligible to participate in a flowthrough.

Save a wholly-owned. Vote "No".

I cant help but to keep asking myself... WHY would Mesa participate? How do they benefit? By generating 50 upgrades for their own pilot group? Hardly seems worthwhile.

As far as your comment on pay -- I dont know what to tell you, my friend. I honestly and sincerely hope that when you get that phone call and you are selected to fly for a major airline, that it is permanent -- that you can expect to be there for the duration of your career.

If, however, you are furloughed and you choose to return to the regionals, I hope that you remember what it was like to be a regional airline F/O and make the best of it -- regardless of what the payscale is at that time.

It's tougher than it sounds sometimes!

 

[Flying"C"ranchr]

Measa's MEC

Mesa's MEC supports J4J.

I'm voting against it.

Ranchr

 

[surplus1]

Re: Scope is the Guardian - Jobs are the Key

Ok Surplus (sigh) fire away.

Nope my friend, won't do it.

I'll glady debate this issue with you, in private or in some other thread but not in this one. Why with you but not here? Because, IMHO, you are the only one writing in this thread so far that has any real understanding of this subject.

I'm sorry if that offends others and I don't mean to be offensive. The truth is that the Jets for Jobs issue is very complex. Based on the content of the posts, both here and in other threads, it appears that most of the writers have not even read the related documents.

IMO, a meaningful discussion of such a complex subject, requires a knowledge of the history that precedes it, the structure of the airlines involved, the contracts of each, the labor union that represents them, the record of the politics (both open and behind the scenes), the history of Scope and a working knowledge of the J4J protocols.

This complex issue cannot be understood, let alone debated, (again in my opinion) without most of that background if not all of it. Unfortunately, a majority of line pilots on both sides of the fence, do not have that background and are, in general, illinformed or misinformed or both. So we wind up not with a discussion but with a quarrel. That doesn't accomplish much.

Another problem is that there are many preconceived assumptions and beliefs that are firmly ingrained but that cannot stand the test of close examination. In other words, myths. It's like religion, where even theologians cannot separate fact from fiction, but most folks are quite willing to fall on their swords in defense of their beliefs, right or wrong, myth, half-truth or fact.

IMO, union leaders are responsible for not fully informing their constituents so that the latter can make intelligent decisions. The result is that most of us are operating in a vacuum or faced with the blind leading the blind.

I am opposed to Jets for Jobs but I can only debate it with those that have taken the time to become fully informed. FurloughedAgain is one of those people. There are others, but so far I haven't seen them in this thread.

I apologize up front to anyone that I've PO'd by saying all that. Just take it with a grain of salt. It is only my opinion, so don't let it bother you any. I'm just as "full of it" as the next guy.

Happy days and best wishes to all. Keep in mind "ignorance is bliss".

 

[BoredToDeath]

Actualy Surplus,

Many of us are very well informed as to how this deal is going to affect our future. Remember it's happening at our company not yours.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Furloughed Again,

OK I'll buy that. But if its not about greed than why the difference in pay. Would'nt you say that its a little unjust that a Mainline pilot can come to our property and get paid more than someone senior to him for doing the same job. Sould'nt infact our pay scales go up as well.

And why, if your MEC is worried about where your flying is going to, did they make this agreement so that any carrier (contract or WO) could sign on. Would'nt it have been better to work a deal with Dave to stop the contracting of US Airways Group flying( Group Flying meaning Mainline, PDT, ALG, and PSA) and merge the four companys and have one group of pilots (ONELIST) doing all the flying. Think of the cost savings in getting rid of four different companies and having them all managed under one. On top of that not having to pay another company to feed for U would enable all profits to stay in house.

RJs are not going to save this company. A good route structure will. And thats one thing we don't have. To many big planes doing short haul is just a regional airline on roids.


P.S. Just listened to your MEC update for Oct. 24. Its nice to know big Roy is in support of Mesa. Does he even know that there are 3 WOs who have already "accepted" this deal? What a JackA$$!!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Tough Questions. Flowthroughs & Dreamers.

Bored to Death:

Now we're down to the nitty-gritty. The tough questions. I'll try to answer them, but to be very honest I was just a regular line pilot and not one of the architects of Jets4jobs so all I can really give you is my opinion.

You said, "if its not about greed than why the difference in pay."

I agree with you 100%. I dont see why the "affected" pilots should come to your property and make more money than you do. The mainline MEC was supposedly setting a minimum level of compensation for all participants in Jets4jobs -- back at the beginning when they anticipated that all participants would be Captains! As you know, that has changed now. I think a "fair" solution would be to let the affected pilots bring their longevity over for pay/benefits. <shrug> But thats just me. (The greedy part of me wants to bring my longevity for bidding too!)

You asked, "And why, if your MEC is worried about where your flying is going to, did they make this agreement so that any carrier (contract or WO) could sign on. "

Because the MEC KNEW that this deal was a piece of cr@p!! They were quite aware that they were going to have a tough time getting regional airlines to sign on to Jets4Jobs and they had to find a way to absorb (at the time) 1100 affected pilots.

Remember, when this started Jets4Jobs was only designed to get rid of that noisy, pain-in-the-butt group of "newhires" who expected to have careers at US Airways.

The MEC wanted desperately to give management the ability to fly RJs -- to "save" the company. They just couldnt do it while management was furloughing all of these pilots. Jets4jobs was created so the MEC could say "Hey guys...what do you want from us?? We GOT you jobs!"

They never intended for pilots to be furloughed with up to 15 years seniority. Jets4Jobs was never designed to absorb 30% of the US Airways seniority list. What we are seeing today is a far cry from the original idea.

You said, "Would'nt it have been better to work a deal with Dave to stop the contracting of US Airways Group flying( Group Flying meaning Mainline, PDT, ALG, and PSA) and merge the four companys and have one group of pilots (ONELIST) doing all the flying."

I think that would be fantastic. In fact, a group of "newhires" at US Airways was working towards just that goal. Every time the MEC started talking about RJs this group of junior pilots campaigned for a bidirectional flowthrough. Unfortunately, they're all on the street right now and "Dave" isnt much in a deal-making mood. His "labor-friendly" restructuring is turning out to be anything BUT labor friendly.

You said, "RJs are not going to save this company."

AMEN!!! The following was sent to me from a friend at PSA. A pilot posted the following on their union message board:

"... everyday that goes by that we don't order jets is another day Dave risks putting the entire company out of business. Dave, if you are reading this, please just order the RJs so the WOs can go out and make lots of money for you. "

Really. RJs are the magic-fairies that will arrive and make everything better at US Airways.

Dreamer.

You're right. A good route structure will and thats one thing we don't have. Hopefully Dave is listening because what he REALLY needs to do is quit parking airplanes.

You can't shrink to profitability -- the airline needs to generate revenue. If you're not doing it where you're flying now then find someplace where you can. And THAT is where RJs come in.

They will allow Dave to reallocate the mainline resources where they need to be to make money and allow the RJs to develop markets and retain market-share.

You said, Just listened to your MEC update for Oct. 24. Its nice to know big Roy is in support of Mesa. Does he even know that there are 3 WOs who have already "accepted" this deal? What a JackA$$!!

If it makes you feel any better, Roy is getting furloughed in January... and I agree that he is a JackA$$.

For what its worth I'm furloughed from mainline. I'm currently working at a wholly-owned. & I'm not waiting around for J4J. I'm updating my resume and sending it to every company that will accept it -- I dont think the wholly-owneds will survive Dave's "labor-friendly" restructuring.

Fraternally,
FurloughedAgain

 

[surplus1]

Actualy Surplus,

Many of us are very well informed as to how this deal is going to affect our future. Remember it's happening at our company not yours.

Yes, some of you are but it is definitely not "many". Yes, it is happening at your Company. What all of us would do well to recognize is that what happens at your Company ultimately affects my Comapny and what happens at my Company ultimately affects yours.

Another thing it might help to recognize is that what happened or didn't happen is NOT just the work of UMEC, it is the work of the ALPA. Many of us seem to be afraid to say that. I'm not one of them.

I wish you the best.

 

[The Penguin]

"Really. RJs are the magic-fairies that will arrive and make everything better at US Airways.

Dreamer."

Dreamer? You can't just pack up your bags and change your route structure, thats good imagination. The only way USAirways will survive is to adapt to the environment it serves (East Coast). You can't fly F100's and 737's from TYS, TRI, or other similar sized citys when your load factors are 50% and expect to stay in business very long. Also, you can't keep forcing people to fly on turbo props when there are other alternitives. RJs are the future for USAirways, and everyday that goes by with out them is another day we are all closer to loosing our jobs, which mean no future for anyone at USAirways or Express.

 

[BoredToDeath]

**You can't just pack up your bags and change your route structure, thats good imagination.**

Real leadership would have been able to do just that. Instead we have the ones who are getting bonuses for running this place into the grouond. Some who are still waiting to merge with another failing airline.(UA) Now thats the real pipe dream. Or perhaps nightmare.

**The only way USAirways will survive is to adapt to the environment it serves (East Coast). You can't fly F100's and 737's from TYS, TRI, or other similar sized citys when your load factors are 50% and expect to stay in business very long. **

Just being able to serve the East Coast is not the airline image to strive for. We can't even protect that very well. ie: Comair has increased flights out of DCA. With 3 very experianced WO airlines, US Airways should have been able to very easily expand with the F100s and espescially the 73s instead of trying to shrink like TWA.

**RJs are the future for USAirways, and everyday that goes by with out them is another day we are all closer to loosing our jobs, which mean no future for anyone at USAirways or Express.**

I agree that we need them, especially the WO, but they are only a small part of the problem. The RJs should have been here long ago and the onlything the RJ is gonna do is catch us up to Delta and even their not doing so good.

Infact the only companies doing good in this enviornment don't use RJs do they? And those same companies don't have absurd price models. And my favorite, they don't contract out their work.

Now granted, those companies I mentioned also don't go to every bumf*&k city like we do, but I'm sure there's some Harvard grad out there that could figure out how to make it work for us. And I'm starting to realize that Dave ain't the one.

Surplus,

Your right. IMHO I would rather that the US Airways Group pilots be part of our own union to work with our own mgt. I've always wondered how ALPA can say they represent our needs when one of the main needs of the WO is not to have US Airways Group flying contracted out. And now in this dam Express News Lettter I get, their trying to make me think that I should feel some sort of brotherly love with Mesa because they are ALPA too. Scr%w that! Once they get off our property, I'll give em all the love they want.

How can one union represent all pilots from competting airlines. It dosen't make sense.

Furloughed Again,

Thanks for some more insight. Everything you've said I basically agree with. I can even give on the money if we get some too, but the bidding? Your out of luck.

Take Care,
BTD

Oh and BTW Penquin, don't take my reply as trying to bash you just giving my opinion. Like as if you wanted it.

 

[The Penguin]

BTD, How can it be bashing when we are just having a discussion?

"Infact the only companies doing good in this enviornment don't use RJs do they?"

Actually, Air Tran is begininng to use RJs. I think WN has peaked for the near term, or at least until they can adapt to the new security procedures. Afterall, it was WN's 20 min turn that made the company. I think they will find a way to adapt, but until then I think Air Tran and Jet Blue have the advantage. And I wouldn't be surprised to see JB eventually, maybe not tomorrow, but in a few years create (or contract) a feeder of some kind.

"I agree that we need them, especially the WO, but they (RJs) are only a small part of the problem."

No, they are a big part of the problem. USAirways is loosing passengers to Comair, CoEx, and Eagle because of RJs. People prefer them, plain and simple. Dave has reduced the cost structure of what once was the airline with the highest operating cost of any major airline. Next is to create the East coast feed needed to benefit not only US, but also United. Yeah, these two airlines have a long way to go before they are even close to being out of the woods and most likely things will get worse before they get better. Only time will tell. I just don't want to see another airline bite the dust, thats just too many jobs lost at the worst possible time.