jetsforjobs?

[jon210]

Can someone explain what this is and why it is so hated?

 

[Andy Neill]

Let's say mainline A goes to regional B and says, "We have a bunch of pilots on furlough. If you will employ them (with or without some strings attached related to which seat, seniority, pay structure), we will relax the existing scope restrictions placed on you by so many jets. For instance, if you take 400 pilots from us, we will let you fly 80 jets."

This would provide SOME employment for the mainline furloughed pilots.
This would allow some jets not previously allowed at the regional.
The details of the plan would be the objectionable part in that
- Pilots from mainline are being "forced" down the throat of the regional.
- The provisions may allow for mainline pilots new to the regional to get the left seat and bypass seniority within the regional.
- The provisions may allow for mainline pilots to get mainline pay for doing regional work.
- The provisions may allow for mainline pilots to get senior regional pay even though they are newhires at the regional.
- It may force junior regional pilots onto the street as the j4j mainline pilots walk through the door.
- It may diminish the anticipated pilot force growth of regional pilots if the jets were coming anyway and now they must be shared with furloughed mainline pilots.

I believe this pretty well summarizes the potential problems regional pilots would have with the j4j proposals.

 

[Sleepyhead]

I agree with your points however I think the regionals have brought this upon themselves. The unwritten policy of not interviewing furloughed pilots is one cause.
Just think, If the regionals would treat furloughees just like other applicants, (ie offer interviews based on qualifications) the majors would not be in the position to apply leverage of Jets for Jobs.

 

[Andy Neill]

An interesting position, hog.

Go with me on this. A regional says to furloughees everywhere, "Ya'll come. We accept furloughed pilots just like any other applicant." Some mainline folks apply and get jobs. Now re-enter mainline A (and the MEC from their union) who needs a bunch of small jets to be competitive (and the union would like the remainder of their furloughed pilots employed), wouldn't j4j still be there? If so, would you, as a mainline pilot rather be at the bottom of the seniority list getting regional pay with the regional who would hire you, or would you rather be in the left seat of the regional getting mainline pay or super seniority pay?

I believe the need for jobs is greater than the regionals could have absorbed hence the pressure for j4j (as a joint effort between mainline managment wanting scope relief and mainline MEC wanting jobs) would still be there. Could be wrong.

 

[Otto]

I agree with your points however I think the regionals have brought this upon themselves. The unwritten policy of not interviewing furloughed pilots is one cause.
Just think, If the regionals would treat furloughees just like other applicants, (ie offer interviews based on qualifications) the majors would not be in the position to apply leverage of Jets for Jobs.

I'm glad you're not in managment. Hmm...lets see, do I spend thousands of bucks to train someone who will be with me for years or do I spend thousands on someone who I know is going to jump ship as soon as his old job comes back, forcing me to train yet another guy? That highly qualified furloughed guy costs double in the long run yet he generates the same revenue as the other guy. Do the math...which would you choose?

 

[LR25]

If thats the case, explain Potomac AKA Freedumb Air.

Wouldnt the Mainline guys get preference there?

What about Midway?

I hate to see any pilot furloughed, we are all in this together, but if one airline does good, and one does bad, how do the ones at the bad airline get the jobs of the airline that is doing good, and then get paid more than the guy above you in the seniority.

All there is, is just questions, non good answers.

 

[Sleepyhead]

" I'm glad you're not in managment. Hmm...lets see, do I spend
thousands of bucks to train someone who will be with me for years or do I spend thousands on someone who I know is going to jump ship as soon as his old job comes back, forcing me to train yet another guy? That highly qualified furloughed guy costs double in the long run yet he generates the same revenue as the other guy. Do the math...which would you choose?"


Your arguement makes sense for a major airline but we are talking about the regional hiring here.
When the majors are hiring, the majority of regional pilots are leaving as fast as they can. So if you are regional mgt you can't say, gee if I hire this low time guy new guy he will be here for years. The opposite is what happens. Why do you think many companys had training contracts. When I was hired at a regional back in 98, the hiring was so good at the majors we had 3 guys leave the company one month out of training. and in the summer of 2000, so many were leaving to the majors the company couldn't fill new hire classes.
The fact is the furloughed pilot will not return to their jobs until things turn around inthe industry. And when that happens the other guys at the regionals will be getting interviews and leaving just as fast. I know some regional mgt people. If you ask them they will tell you if they get 2-3 years froma new hire that is really good.
Do you think any of the furloughed pilots will be going back withing 2-3 years.? With many still furloughing right now, I don't think so.

 

[Sleepyhead]

Andy,
I don't agree.

First of all, j4j only works at the companys that own their regional. A few months after 911 when Skywest was interviewing, a lot of furloughees were asking the MEC why they didn't put pressure on Skywest to interview UAL furloughees, since they are a large UAX carrier. The MEC said they had no leverage to do so since Skywest is not owned by UAL.
(not really true but, the MEC wasn't interested)
All mgt-pilot negotiations involve give and take. If you want more jets, than you have to give something to let mainline pilots give releif on scope. If you don't like j4j, then you can take that card away from them by interviewing and hiring furloughed pilots.
Then you can tell them "we don't need j4j because we are already hiring your guys. What else do you want to offer."

 

[CF34-3B1]

I know in the case of ASA, we're hiring a lot of furloughed guys (no seniority # resignation required)

It really does make sense for management, we get a very experienced pilot, and the reality is, they aren't going back to mainline any time soon, so why not?

And although I'm not a "company man" I did have the opportunity to discuss this issue with several of our management and chief pilot types recently. In addition to the above points, one thing that was said that struck me was "It's just the right thing to do to try and help these guys out."

 

[Freight Dog]

Let me be the devil's advocate here:


If USAirways survives and becomes a viable and profitable airline, don't all the new-hires have to start as DHC-8 FO's or CRJ FO's and work their way up the seniority list to the heavies?

Secondly, doesn't US Airways have furloughees with DOH back in 1989? What's the DOH of a displaced senior guy at a WO?

To me, this almost looks like a merger of seniority lists based on DOH. Isn't this what RJDC wants?

 

[Beechnut]

Hey Hog, you said:

First of all, j4j only works at the companys that own their regional.

Mesa is working on a deal with USAirways for J4J. Mesa is not owned by USAirways

S.

 

[Sleepyhead]

I stand corrected.
However it is not exactly the the same situation we were talking about. From what I hear the Mesa MEC is against this and fighting it. Another one of JOs trick to get more jets.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Wow.!!!

So many of you are way off. So I'll try and answer want I can then maybe Furloughed Again can answer the rest, and if he/she does'nt respond, go and look up what he/she has written. It should answer the original question.

hog wrote: **The unwritten policy of not interviewing furloughed pilots is one cause. **

After 9/11 PSA hired back all the furloughes from various Mainlines that used to work here back. As well as Every pilot from Emery that wanted to work here when Emery took a dump. Unfortunately not many of the Emery guys stayed. So as far as what I've seen there is no unwritten policy.

LR25 wrote: **If thats the case, explain Potomac AKA Freedumb Air. **

Potomac and Freedom have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Potomac was created for the merger that was supposed to happen between U and UA, and was a product of U. Freedom would have been a product of Mesa to get around U's scope clause. They were not the same thing.


Freight Dog wrote: **Secondly, doesn't US Airways have furloughees with DOH back in 1989? What's the DOH of a displaced senior guy at a WO?

To me, this almost looks like a merger of seniority lists based on DOH. Isn't this what RJDC wants?**

Actually, soon the last furloughee will have a DOH of alittle more than '89'. And from our last update negotiations on how to not necessarly merge the lists, but rather adjust the flowthrough to MDA and then Mainline are not going well. Remember many of the most senior WO guys have been there for 10 to 15 years longer than alot of the furloghees from Mainline that came from places like Mesa. And their not about to be junior to them.

Beechnut wrote: **Mesa is working on a deal with USAirways for J4J. Mesa is not owned by USAirways **

This is belived to be more propaganda to assist JO during contract negotiations with his pilots. The original 70 jets allowed by the U scope clause are not being operated. There is only somewhere around 50 being operated by Mesa, TSA, and CHQ combined. This is info being told to me by my reps who have lied in the past so I may be wrong. But if it is true that would mean that the 20 more coming to Mesa are just enough to bring the # of SJ operated in U colors up to the 70 allowed by U's current scope clause without falling under the Jets4Jobs provisions.

The Mesa pilots have not indicated any desire to fall for the Extortion that the WO's have had no choice to take.

Now to the original question. What is Jets4Jobs and why is it hated?

Well I'll let someone else tell ya what it is since I really can't find the right words to explain it, but I can tell ya why its hated.

It says to me that a Mainline Pilot is more important than me. Its like Mainline saying we were'nt good enough to have a flow through way back when but now that there is no hope for returning to Mainline in the near future they want to force a flow down now. And get paid more to do the same job just because.

Its all about Greed!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Scope is the Guardian - Jobs are the Key

Hi Bored,

I'd like to add two points to what you said.

#1. You said, "The original 70 jets allowed by the U scope clause are not being operated. There is only somewhere around 50 being operated by Mesa, TSA, and CHQ combined. This is info being told to me by my reps who have lied in the past so I may be wrong"

I dont believe your reps are intentionally deceiving you. I could be mistaken again, but my sources on the mainline MEC indicate that all 70 RJs permitted under LOA79 are currently flying. I guess we'll see!

#2. You said, "Its all about greed..

No, my friend, its all about jobs. The US Airways PWA (pilots working agreement) essentially makes the statement that all US Airways flying must be done by pilots on the US Airways seniority list -- except for this, this, this and this...

The "excepts" are sections that they have permitted be flown by wholly-owned, contract, and codeshare carriers. Obviously turboprop flying has been permitted to be flown elsewhere. Obviously up to 70 RJs have been permitted to be flown elsewhere. (limited to 50 seats and 65000 lbs).

Then, while at the same time they were faced with the furlough of over 1000 of their pilots, they were asked to obliterate the scope -- allow over 400 jets to be flown in US Airways colors, but not by US AIrways pilots and feeding only 245-279 mainline airplanes.

I think their fear is pretty obvious. As many of you have mentioned the vast majority of US Airways flying could easily be done by these jets.

The MEC had a dillema. They knew that US Airways needed the RJs to remain competitive. But they also knew that had they outsourced that much flying with 1000+ pilots on furlough, they were looking at a pretty staggering class-action duty-of-fair-representation lawsuit. So what did they do?

They imposed a single seniority list with an unrestricted flowthrough, They obliterated scope with some provisions (J4J), and they restricted "large" RJs to MidAtlantic.

I think that the reasons you posted regarding why the wholly-owned pilots are angry are perfectly clear. They have every right to be angry, upset, etc. Three years ago had management created a single seniority list with unrestricted flowthrough we all would have been dancing in the streets -- and today we'd all be back at the regionals.

There's no good way to talk intelligently about this topic without making SOMEONE angry -- but I assure you this isnt about greed.
ALPA used to have flight-bag stickers which they passed around and read, "Scope is the Guardian - Jobs are the Key"

Ok Surplus (sigh) fire away.

 

[C3P0]

unwritten rule

In reply to a previous post. The unwritten rule of not interviewing or hiring forloughed pilots. They do at ASA, interview and hire, without having them give up their date of hire.

This is my only point.

 

[Brother Francis]

I have heard (not confirmed) that there are some U furloughs in training at CHQ.

I find it significant that the only pilot groups who have "agreed" to "participate" in j4j were given death as the alternative.

 

[jon210]

It seems the best solution for everyone then would be to have a flowthrough program that flows both ways, especially with carriers that own their regional carriers. I was once told by an American pilot that the hardest way to get a mainline job was to work for one of its regionals. Don't know how true this is, but if there is any truth to it, it is absurd.

 

[Sleepyhead]

"It seems the best solution for everyone then would be to have
a flowthrough program that flows both ways"

Yes, that would be a good thing.
But the reason the majors are against it is because they don't have any control of the hiring process of the regionals.
They only way to make it work would be to have one hiring dept.

 

[LR25]

I think USAir turned that down to PDT several years ago.

You right Bored, I was a little confused about the Potomac thing, now I remember.

The USAir and WO'ed and contract carrier thing is getting complicated.

 

[Flying"C"ranchr]

J4J... looks like, smells like

the concept of j4j from managment's point of view looks good... more rjs doing the job in place of larger airframes. from a regional pilot group point of view, i feel it's not so good.

first, why should a furlough mainline pilot come to the regionals and get 1st year cpt pay as an fo? doesn't this devalue what the regional pilot has been striving for?

second, sure we may get more airframes, but the ratio of aircraft and furloughed mainline pilots will be skewed to benefit the furloughees and the existing and future regional newhires will get whats left. i.e. longer upgrade time for the the regional pilot.

third, duty rigs, shift rigs, etc. these are going to be an issue for the mainline pilot on furlough. who knows they may bitch enough to enhance the regional pilot's quality of life...we will see. i foresee a great deal of unhappy mainline piots living the minor league life style... it's just going to be a bad working environment.

fourth... can you say 401K? do these mainline guys continue to have the option to contribute to mainline retirement, or are they limited to what the regional pilot can invest their money in? if they get to contribute to their existing mainline retirement, does the regional pilot get an opportunity to contibute to these programs???

my point of view,
ranchr

p.s. wow, i'm getting 2nd f.o. pay at mesa... $27/hr, and an j4j f.o. get 1st year cpt pay at $50/hr... isn't life grand?