jetsforjobs?

[Beechnut]

Hey Hog, you said:

First of all, j4j only works at the companys that own their regional.

Mesa is working on a deal with USAirways for J4J. Mesa is not owned by USAirways

S.

 

[Sleepyhead]

I stand corrected.
However it is not exactly the the same situation we were talking about. From what I hear the Mesa MEC is against this and fighting it. Another one of JOs trick to get more jets.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Wow.!!!

So many of you are way off. So I'll try and answer want I can then maybe Furloughed Again can answer the rest, and if he/she does'nt respond, go and look up what he/she has written. It should answer the original question.

hog wrote: **The unwritten policy of not interviewing furloughed pilots is one cause. **

After 9/11 PSA hired back all the furloughes from various Mainlines that used to work here back. As well as Every pilot from Emery that wanted to work here when Emery took a dump. Unfortunately not many of the Emery guys stayed. So as far as what I've seen there is no unwritten policy.

LR25 wrote: **If thats the case, explain Potomac AKA Freedumb Air. **

Potomac and Freedom have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Potomac was created for the merger that was supposed to happen between U and UA, and was a product of U. Freedom would have been a product of Mesa to get around U's scope clause. They were not the same thing.


Freight Dog wrote: **Secondly, doesn't US Airways have furloughees with DOH back in 1989? What's the DOH of a displaced senior guy at a WO?

To me, this almost looks like a merger of seniority lists based on DOH. Isn't this what RJDC wants?**

Actually, soon the last furloughee will have a DOH of alittle more than '89'. And from our last update negotiations on how to not necessarly merge the lists, but rather adjust the flowthrough to MDA and then Mainline are not going well. Remember many of the most senior WO guys have been there for 10 to 15 years longer than alot of the furloghees from Mainline that came from places like Mesa. And their not about to be junior to them.

Beechnut wrote: **Mesa is working on a deal with USAirways for J4J. Mesa is not owned by USAirways **

This is belived to be more propaganda to assist JO during contract negotiations with his pilots. The original 70 jets allowed by the U scope clause are not being operated. There is only somewhere around 50 being operated by Mesa, TSA, and CHQ combined. This is info being told to me by my reps who have lied in the past so I may be wrong. But if it is true that would mean that the 20 more coming to Mesa are just enough to bring the # of SJ operated in U colors up to the 70 allowed by U's current scope clause without falling under the Jets4Jobs provisions.

The Mesa pilots have not indicated any desire to fall for the Extortion that the WO's have had no choice to take.

Now to the original question. What is Jets4Jobs and why is it hated?

Well I'll let someone else tell ya what it is since I really can't find the right words to explain it, but I can tell ya why its hated.

It says to me that a Mainline Pilot is more important than me. Its like Mainline saying we were'nt good enough to have a flow through way back when but now that there is no hope for returning to Mainline in the near future they want to force a flow down now. And get paid more to do the same job just because.

Its all about Greed!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Scope is the Guardian - Jobs are the Key

Hi Bored,

I'd like to add two points to what you said.

#1. You said, "The original 70 jets allowed by the U scope clause are not being operated. There is only somewhere around 50 being operated by Mesa, TSA, and CHQ combined. This is info being told to me by my reps who have lied in the past so I may be wrong"

I dont believe your reps are intentionally deceiving you. I could be mistaken again, but my sources on the mainline MEC indicate that all 70 RJs permitted under LOA79 are currently flying. I guess we'll see!

#2. You said, "Its all about greed..

No, my friend, its all about jobs. The US Airways PWA (pilots working agreement) essentially makes the statement that all US Airways flying must be done by pilots on the US Airways seniority list -- except for this, this, this and this...

The "excepts" are sections that they have permitted be flown by wholly-owned, contract, and codeshare carriers. Obviously turboprop flying has been permitted to be flown elsewhere. Obviously up to 70 RJs have been permitted to be flown elsewhere. (limited to 50 seats and 65000 lbs).

Then, while at the same time they were faced with the furlough of over 1000 of their pilots, they were asked to obliterate the scope -- allow over 400 jets to be flown in US Airways colors, but not by US AIrways pilots and feeding only 245-279 mainline airplanes.

I think their fear is pretty obvious. As many of you have mentioned the vast majority of US Airways flying could easily be done by these jets.

The MEC had a dillema. They knew that US Airways needed the RJs to remain competitive. But they also knew that had they outsourced that much flying with 1000+ pilots on furlough, they were looking at a pretty staggering class-action duty-of-fair-representation lawsuit. So what did they do?

They imposed a single seniority list with an unrestricted flowthrough, They obliterated scope with some provisions (J4J), and they restricted "large" RJs to MidAtlantic.

I think that the reasons you posted regarding why the wholly-owned pilots are angry are perfectly clear. They have every right to be angry, upset, etc. Three years ago had management created a single seniority list with unrestricted flowthrough we all would have been dancing in the streets -- and today we'd all be back at the regionals.

There's no good way to talk intelligently about this topic without making SOMEONE angry -- but I assure you this isnt about greed.
ALPA used to have flight-bag stickers which they passed around and read, "Scope is the Guardian - Jobs are the Key"

Ok Surplus (sigh) fire away.

 

[C3P0]

unwritten rule

In reply to a previous post. The unwritten rule of not interviewing or hiring forloughed pilots. They do at ASA, interview and hire, without having them give up their date of hire.

This is my only point.

 

[Brother Francis]

I have heard (not confirmed) that there are some U furloughs in training at CHQ.

I find it significant that the only pilot groups who have "agreed" to "participate" in j4j were given death as the alternative.

 

[jon210]

It seems the best solution for everyone then would be to have a flowthrough program that flows both ways, especially with carriers that own their regional carriers. I was once told by an American pilot that the hardest way to get a mainline job was to work for one of its regionals. Don't know how true this is, but if there is any truth to it, it is absurd.

 

[Sleepyhead]

"It seems the best solution for everyone then would be to have
a flowthrough program that flows both ways"

Yes, that would be a good thing.
But the reason the majors are against it is because they don't have any control of the hiring process of the regionals.
They only way to make it work would be to have one hiring dept.

 

[LR25]

I think USAir turned that down to PDT several years ago.

You right Bored, I was a little confused about the Potomac thing, now I remember.

The USAir and WO'ed and contract carrier thing is getting complicated.

 

[Flying"C"ranchr]

J4J... looks like, smells like

the concept of j4j from managment's point of view looks good... more rjs doing the job in place of larger airframes. from a regional pilot group point of view, i feel it's not so good.

first, why should a furlough mainline pilot come to the regionals and get 1st year cpt pay as an fo? doesn't this devalue what the regional pilot has been striving for?

second, sure we may get more airframes, but the ratio of aircraft and furloughed mainline pilots will be skewed to benefit the furloughees and the existing and future regional newhires will get whats left. i.e. longer upgrade time for the the regional pilot.

third, duty rigs, shift rigs, etc. these are going to be an issue for the mainline pilot on furlough. who knows they may bitch enough to enhance the regional pilot's quality of life...we will see. i foresee a great deal of unhappy mainline piots living the minor league life style... it's just going to be a bad working environment.

fourth... can you say 401K? do these mainline guys continue to have the option to contribute to mainline retirement, or are they limited to what the regional pilot can invest their money in? if they get to contribute to their existing mainline retirement, does the regional pilot get an opportunity to contibute to these programs???

my point of view,
ranchr

p.s. wow, i'm getting 2nd f.o. pay at mesa... $27/hr, and an j4j f.o. get 1st year cpt pay at $50/hr... isn't life grand?