jetsforjobs?

[jon210]

Can someone explain what this is and why it is so hated?

 

[Andy Neill]

Let's say mainline A goes to regional B and says, "We have a bunch of pilots on furlough. If you will employ them (with or without some strings attached related to which seat, seniority, pay structure), we will relax the existing scope restrictions placed on you by so many jets. For instance, if you take 400 pilots from us, we will let you fly 80 jets."

This would provide SOME employment for the mainline furloughed pilots.
This would allow some jets not previously allowed at the regional.
The details of the plan would be the objectionable part in that
- Pilots from mainline are being "forced" down the throat of the regional.
- The provisions may allow for mainline pilots new to the regional to get the left seat and bypass seniority within the regional.
- The provisions may allow for mainline pilots to get mainline pay for doing regional work.
- The provisions may allow for mainline pilots to get senior regional pay even though they are newhires at the regional.
- It may force junior regional pilots onto the street as the j4j mainline pilots walk through the door.
- It may diminish the anticipated pilot force growth of regional pilots if the jets were coming anyway and now they must be shared with furloughed mainline pilots.

I believe this pretty well summarizes the potential problems regional pilots would have with the j4j proposals.

 

[Sleepyhead]

I agree with your points however I think the regionals have brought this upon themselves. The unwritten policy of not interviewing furloughed pilots is one cause.
Just think, If the regionals would treat furloughees just like other applicants, (ie offer interviews based on qualifications) the majors would not be in the position to apply leverage of Jets for Jobs.

 

[Andy Neill]

An interesting position, hog.

Go with me on this. A regional says to furloughees everywhere, "Ya'll come. We accept furloughed pilots just like any other applicant." Some mainline folks apply and get jobs. Now re-enter mainline A (and the MEC from their union) who needs a bunch of small jets to be competitive (and the union would like the remainder of their furloughed pilots employed), wouldn't j4j still be there? If so, would you, as a mainline pilot rather be at the bottom of the seniority list getting regional pay with the regional who would hire you, or would you rather be in the left seat of the regional getting mainline pay or super seniority pay?

I believe the need for jobs is greater than the regionals could have absorbed hence the pressure for j4j (as a joint effort between mainline managment wanting scope relief and mainline MEC wanting jobs) would still be there. Could be wrong.

 

[Otto]

I agree with your points however I think the regionals have brought this upon themselves. The unwritten policy of not interviewing furloughed pilots is one cause.
Just think, If the regionals would treat furloughees just like other applicants, (ie offer interviews based on qualifications) the majors would not be in the position to apply leverage of Jets for Jobs.

I'm glad you're not in managment. Hmm...lets see, do I spend thousands of bucks to train someone who will be with me for years or do I spend thousands on someone who I know is going to jump ship as soon as his old job comes back, forcing me to train yet another guy? That highly qualified furloughed guy costs double in the long run yet he generates the same revenue as the other guy. Do the math...which would you choose?

 

[LR25]

If thats the case, explain Potomac AKA Freedumb Air.

Wouldnt the Mainline guys get preference there?

What about Midway?

I hate to see any pilot furloughed, we are all in this together, but if one airline does good, and one does bad, how do the ones at the bad airline get the jobs of the airline that is doing good, and then get paid more than the guy above you in the seniority.

All there is, is just questions, non good answers.

 

[Sleepyhead]

" I'm glad you're not in managment. Hmm...lets see, do I spend
thousands of bucks to train someone who will be with me for years or do I spend thousands on someone who I know is going to jump ship as soon as his old job comes back, forcing me to train yet another guy? That highly qualified furloughed guy costs double in the long run yet he generates the same revenue as the other guy. Do the math...which would you choose?"


Your arguement makes sense for a major airline but we are talking about the regional hiring here.
When the majors are hiring, the majority of regional pilots are leaving as fast as they can. So if you are regional mgt you can't say, gee if I hire this low time guy new guy he will be here for years. The opposite is what happens. Why do you think many companys had training contracts. When I was hired at a regional back in 98, the hiring was so good at the majors we had 3 guys leave the company one month out of training. and in the summer of 2000, so many were leaving to the majors the company couldn't fill new hire classes.
The fact is the furloughed pilot will not return to their jobs until things turn around inthe industry. And when that happens the other guys at the regionals will be getting interviews and leaving just as fast. I know some regional mgt people. If you ask them they will tell you if they get 2-3 years froma new hire that is really good.
Do you think any of the furloughed pilots will be going back withing 2-3 years.? With many still furloughing right now, I don't think so.

 

[Sleepyhead]

Andy,
I don't agree.

First of all, j4j only works at the companys that own their regional. A few months after 911 when Skywest was interviewing, a lot of furloughees were asking the MEC why they didn't put pressure on Skywest to interview UAL furloughees, since they are a large UAX carrier. The MEC said they had no leverage to do so since Skywest is not owned by UAL.
(not really true but, the MEC wasn't interested)
All mgt-pilot negotiations involve give and take. If you want more jets, than you have to give something to let mainline pilots give releif on scope. If you don't like j4j, then you can take that card away from them by interviewing and hiring furloughed pilots.
Then you can tell them "we don't need j4j because we are already hiring your guys. What else do you want to offer."

 

[CF34-3B1]

I know in the case of ASA, we're hiring a lot of furloughed guys (no seniority # resignation required)

It really does make sense for management, we get a very experienced pilot, and the reality is, they aren't going back to mainline any time soon, so why not?

And although I'm not a "company man" I did have the opportunity to discuss this issue with several of our management and chief pilot types recently. In addition to the above points, one thing that was said that struck me was "It's just the right thing to do to try and help these guys out."

 

[Freight Dog]

Let me be the devil's advocate here:


If USAirways survives and becomes a viable and profitable airline, don't all the new-hires have to start as DHC-8 FO's or CRJ FO's and work their way up the seniority list to the heavies?

Secondly, doesn't US Airways have furloughees with DOH back in 1989? What's the DOH of a displaced senior guy at a WO?

To me, this almost looks like a merger of seniority lists based on DOH. Isn't this what RJDC wants?