JetBlue Vote....

[clickclickboom]

That is an excellent point the problem is that we always seem to report a modest yet small profit but if you review our presentations and reports you will see that for example a 25 million profit is reported yet 250,000,000 in debt will be repaid. That may seem great but when you really dive into the filings you realize that $75 to $100,000,000 was paid for by cash. You then look at our our cash on hand take into consideration interest gains and realize that we didnt make 25mil but over 125mil..

the bottom line is that we are very very profitable and literally printing money. the problem that many have here is that this success is on the backs of the employees. One such example is shown above with the 40% cost being transferred to the employees. Another is the absolute downright lie from ther legal dept that there was a retirement shortfall workaround when in fact there was none, another is that fact that management changes our peerset with no input to support a no " de minimis payraise " for last year..

 

[B6Busdriver]

What if JB can not match industry std and remain profitable? Here is how the UAW does it; they reach a deal with a single company, then go to the next company and say match it or you will be shutdown and all the new cars being sold will be built someplace else, then they go to the next company and repeat. When the auto companies where rolling in money it was a good deal for all. But over the last 30 years it has eliminated 70% of the union jobs, gave great raise to non-union companies, and now it is concession time. Now the Airlines could follow the same path as the UAW and it would be great for 30% of those who still had jobs. This is also great for the non-ALPA airlines that would fly all the passengers when the ALPA pilots were on strike. So you on stike to get what you want. Or go the UAL way and delay flights?

What if you would mind your own business? What if you would quit hijacking threads for an airline you do not even work for? What a wonderful world it would be..... Please YIP, go chase your wife around or find a hobby. I'm trying to have discourse with my fellow B6 pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

What if you would mind your own business? What if you would quit hijacking threads for an airline you do not even work for? What a wonderful world it would be..... Please YIP, go chase your wife around or find a hobby. I'm trying to have discourse with my fellow B6 pilots.

This a public forum as far as I know. If you private business you use a private site. I am a former airline union members at two airlines that are now out of business, the public at this site need t ohear bot hsides. Unions are destroying the state and local gov't throughout this country. I have a lot of friends at JB, I worried about there future of a USAirways type union is impossed upon the uniformed.

 

[Lake Alice]

This a public forum as far as I know. If you private business you use a private site. I am a former airline union members at two airlines that are now out of business, the public at this site need t ohear bot hsides. Unions are destroying the state and local gov't throughout this country. I have a lot of friends at JB, I worried about there future of a USAirways type union is impossed upon the uniformed.

Airlines go out of business due to poor leadership, poor planning and poor management. No union in the aviation industry has ever FORCED an airline out of business. I appreciate your rhetoric but it is misguided and clearly incorrect.

 

[pilotyip]

Airlines go out of business due to poor leadership, poor planning and poor management. No union in the aviation industry has ever FORCED an airline out of business. I appreciate your rhetoric but it is misguided and clearly incorrect.

understand, but there has to be two sides

 

[Blue Dude]

What if JB can not match industry std and remain profitable? Here is how the UAW does it; they reach a deal with a single company, then go to the next company and say match it or you will be shutdown and all the new cars being sold will be built someplace else, then they go to the next company and repeat. When the auto companies where rolling in money it was a good deal for all. But over the last 30 years it has eliminated 70% of the union jobs, gave great raise to non-union companies, and now it is concession time. Now the Airlines could follow the same path as the UAW and it would be great for 30% of those who still had jobs. This is also great for the non-ALPA airlines that would fly all the passengers when the ALPA pilots were on strike. So you on stike to get what you want. Or go the UAL way and delay flights?

No offense, but you don't have the first idea what you're talking about. Airlines operate under the RLA, not the NLRA, as the car industry does. The situation isn't remotely similar. Sure, there may be two sides, but this isn't one of them.

 

[pilotyip]

No offense, but you don't have the first idea what you're talking about. Airlines operate under the RLA, not the NLRA, as the car industry does. The situation isn't remotely similar. Sure, there may be two sides, but this isn't one of them.

so airlines don't go on strike and drive their customers into other airline tubes? But what about when unions price themselves out of the market, and non-union companies such Toyota, JetBlue, etc step in and offer the consumers a similar product at a lower price. Why do union members support non-union places of work, i.e. all the UAW Buy American stickers on the bumpers of the cars parked in the Wal-Mart parking lot? If Bob King, follows was the old tactics of the UAW, he will most likely destroy the remainder of the US auto industry. But if he follows the tactic of the Germans unions, where raises in pay in benefits are more than offset by increases in productivity, he may truly become an American hero. No more job bank, no more 76 job classifications. In the end the consumer of a product determines the wages paid to the employees. BTW I do not shop at Wal-Mart I shop a union store down the street called Meijer's, why because they are a local business.

 

[A350]

I think the notion that no union has ever forced an airline out of business is a truthful statement. But there is much more to every story.

Unions were put on this earth to protect their membership and their pay. However, unions are also businesses. Strength in numbers and numbers mean more dues. More members, more pay, more dues.

Labor used to be the largest expense at an airline. Now it is fuel with labor being a close second. Management can control the cost of labor to an extent, they have no control over the cost of fuel. Pilots at airlines do not act in a vacuum. Once the big money hits the pilot group, everyone else wants a piece of the pie and before long, the costs of the airline are not competitive. That is when airlines start to have financial problems and the whole cycle starts to come full circle. Add a national tragedy or recession and you have a recipe for stagnation, pay and benefit cuts, and possibly bankruptcy.

Don't know where anyone gets these numbers, but I don't think the IRS would allow JB to make $100 million and just pay debt without paying taxes on the profit. Where did you see numbers like that?

A350

 

[pilotyip]

I think the notion that no union has ever forced an airline out of business is a truthful statement. But there is much more to every story.

Unions were put on this earth to protect their membership and their pay. However, unions are also businesses. Strength in numbers and numbers mean more dues. More members, more pay, more dues.

Labor used to be the largest expense at an airline. Now it is fuel with labor being a close second. Management can control the cost of labor to an extent, they have no control over the cost of fuel. Pilots at airlines do not act in a vacuum. Once the big money hits the pilot group, everyone else wants a piece of the pie and before long, the costs of the airline are not competitive. That is when airlines start to have financial problems and the whole cycle starts to come full circle. Add a national tragedy or recession and you have a recipe for stagnation, pay and benefit cuts, and possibly bankruptcy.

Don't know where anyone gets these numbers, but I don't think the IRS would allow JB to make $100 million and just pay debt without paying taxes on the profit. Where did you see numbers like that?

A350

This is a great post on the reality of the airline industry. It seems that pilots think that if they get more money, everyone else will be happy without a raise. That is not the case; a raise for pilots results in rasies for everyone else, pushing the bottom line of the airline. They have to raise prices and allow new airlines like JB, Virgin and whatever name to step in and steal passengers, putting further pressure on the new union air carrier. Plus the union has to keep promising more in order to continue collecting dues. Their demands often become like sharks in a feeding frenzy. Look at the 2000 UAL contract that forced on to management, $350K top pay for a CA, the airline could not afford that. This was forced upon them at the same time that he first class passenger was going away. That was not today's first class upgrade guy, but the guy who paid $2000 for a trip ORD-LAX. It became the perfect storm with 9-11 that resulted in BK two years later.

 

[Lake Alice]

You are both solely focused on pay which in the case of Jetblue, and the theme of this thread, is not one of the top issues. In our case we are seeking a say. We have a Flight Scheduling Manual which the company changes at will. From work rules to scheduling to days off on reserve. Our PEA, Pilot Employment Agreement, do not cover us in the event of a merger or acquisition. Jetblue can buy or be bought by another company and never merge the operations. If foreign ownership is approved we can be purchased by a foreign carrier and operated as a feeder only.
Anyone who says unions are great blah blah blah is full of sh!t. But they are necessary in our industry.
Lets talk about safety for a sec as well. We recently learned from the captain of flight 292(sideways nosewheel guy) he was shut out from the investigation. He gave a statement and was never privy to any information until the decision was officially rendered 3 years later. He was never told whether certificate action was possible or not. For 3 years Jetblue left him in limbo.
Let talk about retirement or benefits. Our PEA's do not incorporate our benefits. If at anytime Jetblue decided to end 401K contributions we have no say. As has been happening for 7 or 8 years Jetblue is changing our insurance benefit each year without our input.
I can go on and on. The truth of the matter is union pilots have a say. What they do with that say is entirely up to them but at Jetblue we have no say and rest assured Jetblue is not taking care of us. Those of us on the organizing committee believe Jetblue pilots have enough union experience to avoid many of the mistakes our peers have repeatedly made in the past.